Jesus Wants You to Steal From the Rich

[00:00:00] Welcome to Thatll Preach. We are here today together live, me and Paul talking about what we love to talk about. Paul's latent communism is just Marxist, social justice, total wokeness, everything infecting his brain all of it. So Paul as our resident progressive liberal Marxist,

[00:00:30] how excited are you to talk about what we're about to talk about today. The progressive Marxist who has like more conservative sexual ethics than anyone else in the non-denominational world. It's funny because that's your dating profile which is odd. Yep, that's right. You got those conservative sexual ethics. There you go. There you go. Come and get me ladies. Ladies form a nice and orderly line for that. Well now that we've lost all of our viewers, we can actually get through there. That was so awkward. This was very strange. I love it.

[00:01:00] Let's lean into it. It's good. You took it. I did. I know. I know. It's late. Yeah, so we are recording a late at night. This is our prime time just like our old days. Yeah. You know back when I was a bachelor, just recording, you know, just recording to the wee hours of the night. Trinking our diet coax. Trinking our diet coax. Not a care in the world except for COVID around us and all that stuff. But the idea behind this podcast was an article rather

[00:01:30] was a talk that you gave at EPS which is like Disney World for nerds. Extra terrestrial persons society. Extra terrestrial persons.

[00:01:42] Oh, okay. Yeah. Evangelical philosophical society. There you go. Evangelical philosophical society which as Paul loves to point out

[00:01:51] he's an oxymoron. Not a dog's skin. That's like I don't recall saying that maybe I did. Yeah, it sounds like something else.

[00:01:58] Everybody loves to trash evangelicals. No, they're okay. Yeah, I know. I'm an evangelical proudly. Yeah, I don't care what anyone thinks except for you. But anyway, you gave this talk. It's very intriguing.

[00:02:14] And when you were telling me about it, I was like, oh, this would be a great thing to get the podcast on. It's the title of your talk is, what does Jesus think about Robinhood?

[00:02:25] Which great clickbait. It's amazing. That's how you do it. Yeah. What inspired you to think about this question of what Jesus thinks about Robinhood?

[00:02:38] And then maybe you can talk about what you're actually. What is Jesus actually think about Robinhood? Why do you care? You know Robinhood? I don't think he was real.

[00:02:47] Yeah, probably not. Probably not. Okay. But regardless, take us to the beginnings of how this idea for this talk came about.

[00:02:57] Well, the Robinhood question was obviously just an afterthought to get a clickbaited title and get butts in the seats, which it did. You know, packed out room.

[00:03:04] I learned my lesson very early on that if you're going to give an academic talk, make sure you have a great title.

[00:03:11] So it was either this or the natural law argument for the Christian exhortation to the obligation to the poor.

[00:03:18] And this just sounded a lot sexier. So I just what with that is totally just vain showboding.

[00:03:22] There you go. But there is something, I mean, it gets at the heart of the question, which is, can there be situations where it's permissible to take something from someone else when you need it yourself?

[00:03:35] So the, I mean, the Robinhood trope, Robinhood takes from the rich and gives it to the poor, takes it from the sheriff of nodding him, gives it to the poor.

[00:03:43] And you might think that stealing. And so if stealing is always wrong, then that's impermissible.

[00:03:48] You might think that stealing is sometimes permissible in which case maybe he's not wrong.

[00:03:53] Or you might think that that's just not stealing at all because he's not taking what doesn't belong to him.

[00:04:00] He's taking what rightfully belongs to him and just giving it back to the poor.

[00:04:04] So, and there is a strong tradition in the Christian natural law tradition that says actually how we think about private property and how we think about ownership of resources should affect how we answer this question.

[00:04:18] And as I argue, I think there is a Christian line of argument that says you can take what you need from someone else who doesn't need it in certain cases.

[00:04:29] I know that's radical and I'm happy to defend that but that's just sort of the basic instinct.

[00:04:36] You're a communist not a communist.

[00:04:39] Okay, no, but this is okay so this is an interesting argument so you're talking about basically it's a question of ownership who really owns the resources.

[00:04:46] You think this is assuming fiasm, assuming that God it is yeah yeah creative all things that he intends it for the good of his and the flourishing of his creatures.

[00:04:54] Okay, so you have this idea of a natural law argument that Thomas Aquinas talks about yeah, I feel like people who are like nerds about Thomas they always just say he's Thomas.

[00:05:10] Aquinas is where he is interesting the Roman Catholics will say Thomas Protestants say Aquinas.

[00:05:16] So if you're listening to a talk in someone says Aquinas they're most likely Protestant.

[00:05:20] The Catholics will say Thomas or St. Thomas yeah there you go what do the Eastern Orthodox say Tommy.

[00:05:27] Yeah little Tommy little Tommy there you go.

[00:05:30] In Gregorian chant is little Tommy a

[00:05:39] You're here first folks if we have an Eastern Orthodox listeners we just like totally lost him.

[00:05:44] The Eastern Orthodox only store that's true they're too sophisticated yeah yeah that's it that's exactly okay

[00:05:50] So natural law is why is once you lay out the argument for us why is it permissible yeah to steal from the rich.

[00:05:57] First of all it's not stealing and so I'm gonna here's here's a couple cases so imagine you are out in a snowstorm

[00:06:05] And you happen upon a cabin

[00:06:08] And you're it's freezing you need shelter you need food everywhere else for miles there's just nothing but blizzard and you're gonna die

[00:06:15] If you break into the cabin

[00:06:18] Just like shelter yourself light a fire eat some food

[00:06:21] Are you doing anything wrong? I mean that's just the first question there right like maybe you're not

[00:06:26] I think most people say that's permissible. You're doing something there. That's okay. You survive right

[00:06:30] You have to like it's just it's essential yeah, and what's interesting is that in us law

[00:06:35] You can't be prosecuted for breaking and entering in those kinds of cases

[00:06:39] because there's a kind of

[00:06:41] recognition of this right to self-preservation

[00:06:45] You have a right to preserve your life and if that cabin is the difference for you between life and death

[00:06:51] You breaking into it is not really a case of breaking and entering you're not really trespassing on someone else's property

[00:06:57] So there's a sense in which the cabin has quote fallen into commonality. It's become common for the use of those who need it

[00:07:05] So not just for you if there were other people too, they'll have a same right to use it because they need access to it

[00:07:12] So that intuition is really interesting. It's one that is in our

[00:07:16] Like it's reflected in how we think about the law and how we prosecute

[00:07:21] Breaking and entering and how we think about the right to self-preservation

[00:07:24] What I think is interesting is that this is not something unique to how we think about property

[00:07:29] This is something that goes all the way back to the church fathers

[00:07:31] um, but it gets its most developed

[00:07:34] articulation in a quietness

[00:07:36] so I I can read out the past from a quietist here maybe we could talk about that or

[00:07:41] With just the back track a little bit. So you're basically saying that even in

[00:07:44] US law there's an understanding that you need to preserve your own life. Yes, and

[00:07:51] If you need to preserve your own life, that means that there are certain goods that you have a right to yes

[00:07:55] That's the means to which you preserve your life

[00:07:57] And so in that situation you're not legally liable because

[00:08:01] That

[00:08:02] Food in the shelter in the shelter whatever to keep you alive

[00:08:06] It actually belongs to you. Yes, even if it legally belongs to somebody else

[00:08:11] That's that's yours. Yes. There's a sense in which it

[00:08:15] It falls into common property

[00:08:17] So it like commonality means it anyone who has need of it could use it

[00:08:22] So it's not that it's like absolutely yours. It would be

[00:08:26] Like kind of incorrect to say it's your property in that moment

[00:08:29] But because this other person let's say I own the cabin. Yeah, I'm not using in that moment

[00:08:34] So I don't need it. Okay, so in the sense that you need it. I don't right

[00:08:37] I'm in my beach house in Florida for example, right? Right. I'm not in this storm

[00:08:40] So I don't I don't need this cabin

[00:08:43] But you need it which is evidenced by the fact that if you don't get inside that you're gonna die

[00:08:47] Right, so in this scenario it's a key detail is that you don't need it as well

[00:08:52] So it would be like

[00:08:53] You know a homeless person can just

[00:08:56] Break and enter into your home and stay in your house right while your family's there right that would be different

[00:09:00] Right unless it's a case of like there's a storm and you have an extra bed or something like that

[00:09:06] That might be different like there's or there's someone there's terrorists outside or you can construct these cases

[00:09:10] Right, right? Well like in most of these cases has to be

[00:09:13] You need it and this other person doesn't need it like their

[00:09:17] Life is not hinging on being access to the cabin as well

[00:09:21] Right, so you can't harm you because then that would be of course not. Yes, of course

[00:09:25] Yes, I'm not talking about anyone can break into someone's house. They need something

[00:09:28] No, specific case. Yes

[00:09:32] You have everyone has a right to self-preservation

[00:09:35] And then if you don't currently need this resource. Yeah somebody else needs it

[00:09:39] They have a common right to it which is different than then

[00:09:43] Having a right in the common way that we think about it

[00:09:46] Yeah, there's a category of ownership

[00:09:50] That can be brought to light in these situations. Yes, and we even recognize it legally. Yes

[00:09:55] Think think of the John Veljon case from laymitz. So he

[00:09:59] Quote and quote steel or what are you talking about John Claude Van Damme?

[00:10:05] I don't know that guy wow you were so our cultural

[00:10:10] gap is so massive here. That's right. Yeah, I was talking about like Victor Hugo laymitz

[00:10:16] He steals a loaf of bread

[00:10:18] Or a quote unquote steals a loaf of bread

[00:10:20] To feed his starving nephew and then get sentenced to 19 years in prison

[00:10:23] Can I be honest? I've never read

[00:10:26] Or seen laymitz you should not have out of yourself except for

[00:10:32] In eighth grade

[00:10:34] Our middle school

[00:10:35] I think we actually want to go see the high schools production of laymitz and it was profitable

[00:10:40] boring

[00:10:42] And then but I had no idea what laymitz was before that high school performance

[00:10:46] And so I'm just like what is this weird French drama? Why don't you know what this about there's thing

[00:10:50] And until later I found it. Oh, that also supposed to be a classic like the whole time

[00:10:54] Like this sucks terrible and then I find out it's like an enduring classic

[00:10:59] Work of art and literature and all that stuff so that was

[00:11:03] A shock people like you seem laymitz. I'm like yeah, it was terrible

[00:11:06] Like oh my god, I should say I haven't seen laymitz until I saw the key in peel spoof

[00:11:11] In like 2012 which is also hilarious. I don't know if we should put that in the show now

[00:11:15] Yeah, there you go

[00:11:17] Let's backtrack to what we're actually talking about. Yeah, so Jean-Veljean quote-unquote steals a love of bread

[00:11:23] From the bakery to feed his starving nephew sentenced to 19 years in prison

[00:11:28] The intuition that's supposed to be pumped by that story is that was unjust like something's wrong with that society for

[00:11:35] Imprisoning him for taking this bread to feed his starving nephew who's gonna die

[00:11:40] And the idea there is well

[00:11:42] What a kindness would say and what the church fathers would say and what Calvin would say I'm gonna pull these quotes out

[00:11:47] Is if God owns all of the property of God owns everything in the world everything belongs to God

[00:11:54] And God gives it to us to meet our needs

[00:11:59] Then I can never own something that for me would be an extra

[00:12:04] But for you is the difference between life and death

[00:12:07] So I cannot withhold it from you if you need it and if you need it

[00:12:13] You can take it from me

[00:12:15] That's that's essentially the so it does require this

[00:12:19] Fiestic picture of the world it requires that God actually God owns everything

[00:12:24] When we own things we only own them like stewards or we own them derivatively

[00:12:28] And we talked about this when we did when to Calvin's little book on the Christian life he's

[00:12:33] Yeah, God owns everything. We're just stewards

[00:12:36] So like

[00:12:37] Part of being a Christian and think about private property

[00:12:40] So like loosen our hold on private property just a little bit

[00:12:43] Like maybe we're thinking about private property too much like in a libertarian lens or something like that

[00:12:49] But actually everything belongs to God and God gives it to us for the purpose of meeting our needs

[00:12:54] And then if somebody else needs it and I don't but it's currently

[00:12:59] In my possession quote-unquote

[00:13:01] There's a sense in which

[00:13:03] That person actually has a right to it. So it

[00:13:06] I think it's actually not as radical as initially sounded

[00:13:09] So it would be like if you look at your personal possessions and you have extra you've extra money that you don't need

[00:13:15] And there are people who are starving the world of need and money

[00:13:20] Would be fair to say if you gave that money that's not generosity. Yes

[00:13:24] Yeah, because generosity so the distinction would be

[00:13:27] Generosity would be that they don't need

[00:13:30] The money, but you give it to them yes

[00:13:34] Is that more virtuous?

[00:13:36] It's just it to be two it's two different things two different kinds of acts so what so when you're generous

[00:13:41] You are giving

[00:13:43] To somebody something that they don't necessarily need right over and above so over and above what they need

[00:13:50] Okay, so to be generous would be to give a great gift or to

[00:13:55] You know pay for

[00:13:58] Read read decorating someone's hat. I don't know something like that yeah

[00:14:01] But if you give somebody who needs money to live

[00:14:06] Money that's extra to you. It's not gonna take away from your life. Yeah

[00:14:10] What would you call that?

[00:14:12] A requirement it's justice justice and Aquinas says so there are two ways that you can give

[00:14:18] Some are under the order of justice and some are under the order of charity

[00:14:22] So and here's here's where I actually want to I'll quote from Augustine and Basil and Ambrose and just just to draw this idea here

[00:14:29] It's not generosity when you give to the poor man what he needs to survive

[00:14:34] Augustine says God does not demand much of you

[00:14:38] He asks back what he gave you and from him you take what is enough for you

[00:14:43] The extra possessions of rich persons are the necessities of poor persons when you possess more than you need

[00:14:50] You possess what belongs to others that's in his commentary on Psalm 147

[00:14:54] And then Basil says is he not called the thief who strips a man of his clothes

[00:14:59] And he will not clothe the naked when he can is he deserving of a different title

[00:15:03] The bread that you keep in your possession belongs to the hungry the cloak and your closet belongs to the naked

[00:15:10] the shoes that you allowed to rot to the barefooted

[00:15:14] And you are horded silver to the indigent hence you have done injustice to as many as you have failed to help

[00:15:22] So it's not it's not generosity. It's a matter of justice

[00:15:27] Ambrose and Calvin say the same thing Ambrose says you are not giving to the poor anything that it's not yours

[00:15:32] But rather restoring something that is his and then John Calvin says in his commentary on Isaiah 58

[00:15:37] This is the dictative common sense that the hungry are deprived of their just right

[00:15:43] If their hunger is not relieved and then his commentary and second Corinthians 8

[00:15:47] He says and equality is to observe is to be observed here that no one is to be allowed to starve

[00:15:52] And no one is to hoard his abundance at the expense of defrauding others

[00:15:57] So this language of defrauding injustice rights

[00:16:02] There is like there's this sense in the Christian tradition that every human being has a right

[00:16:08] To bread to that which they need to survive

[00:16:11] And if you can help this person

[00:16:14] You're not doing something generous. You're really giving back to them. What is theirs?

[00:16:18] And that's that's radical

[00:16:19] Like remember the first time I read this I thought this was kind of crazy

[00:16:23] Like we just don't talk about this but this is all there from

[00:16:26] Chris' stem all the way to Calvin

[00:16:28] So there's a difference between justice

[00:16:34] I guess would you say metaphysically or just the

[00:16:39] Objective truth of what justice and then what's just an illegal

[00:16:44] System sure yeah, what what what's permissible legal it right and so

[00:16:48] For a Christian and when you have sort of these two principles you've that principle self preservation

[00:16:54] And then but then you have the principle of submission to government

[00:16:58] orders and so

[00:17:00] should a Christian

[00:17:02] Who's hungry like let's say they make it illegal. You can know circumstances

[00:17:07] Take someone else's food and all the

[00:17:10] More obligations are met the person doesn't need the food. It's extra. You're about to die

[00:17:14] I

[00:17:15] Guess would you would it be a matter of saying I'm gonna obey God and preserve my life by disobeying

[00:17:23] Whatever kind of legal injunction there is well, there's there's a couple responses you can give here

[00:17:28] I mean Augustin Aquinas the former's all thought if a law is unjust. It's not a real law

[00:17:33] It has no actual authority on you

[00:17:36] So a law that says like even in the book of Daniel a law that says don't pray to the gods of Israel pray to you know

[00:17:42] The statue that's not one that you have to follow because it's not just fine nature is evil

[00:17:48] Any law that says you have to turn in Jews when you find them right like those laws are to be disobeying

[00:17:54] I'm going to be morally incumbent upon the person to say I will suffer the fine for this

[00:17:58] probably suffer whatever legal ramifications there are

[00:18:02] To

[00:18:03] Give food to this person. Oh, yeah

[00:18:05] Or if the person says I'm gonna, you know

[00:18:08] I have a right even if they're gonna throw me in jail for this. I have a right to do this for myself or

[00:18:13] We're for my family. Yeah, I mean and there might be a matter of prudence like is going to jail worse

[00:18:20] Right, then maybe not but like here we're assuming and here

[00:18:24] This is I'm being like philosophical and abstract the principal is one that I want to defend yeah

[00:18:29] Where and how we can apply it? That's a totally separate issue, but just a good point in principle

[00:18:34] It can be permissible to take from someone else what for them is extra

[00:18:39] But what for you is need and those are two very important qualifications

[00:18:43] It has to be extra for them and it has to be need

[00:18:46] For you and this is why Aquinas says in cases of need all things are common property

[00:18:54] So there would seem to be no sin in taking another's property for need has made it common

[00:19:02] And then later he says each one is entrusted with the stewardship of his own things

[00:19:06] So that out of them he may come to the aid of those who are in need

[00:19:10] nevertheless

[00:19:12] If the need is so manifest and urgent that it is evident that the present need must be remedied by whatever means be at hand

[00:19:20] For instance when a person is in some imminent danger, and there's no other possible remedy

[00:19:24] Then it is lawful for a man to meet his own needs by means of another man's property

[00:19:30] Taking it either openly or secretly nor is this properly speaking theft or robbery. So it's not theft

[00:19:37] So that the fathers and Calvin are quite not saying theft is permissible sometimes

[00:19:42] They're saying it's not theft because certain cases the property has actually changed hands

[00:19:48] When I'm in the storm and the cabin is there it's not permissible like it's not permissible breaking an entering

[00:19:54] It's not breaking an entering

[00:19:56] In the case of John Vellegin it's not permissible stealing. It's not stealing if you have this view

[00:20:01] Where God actually like God is the one keeping the tally for who owns what right and God says

[00:20:08] That person needs this bread

[00:20:10] So actually like metaphysically it transfers ownership

[00:20:14] So you're just taking what's yours even if it's not recognized by the law

[00:20:19] Right, so that's the key distinction that's the key distinction yeah because you're not saying in some cases

[00:20:24] So theft will be defined as taking someone else's property yes, yes, right against their will

[00:20:30] And you're saying it's not as though we're saying there are sometimes when it's okay to take someone else's property

[00:20:35] Right, you're actually rather saying that in those cases in which you need this

[00:20:41] provision so that you can live

[00:20:43] That provision now becomes your property

[00:20:46] You're actually taking what's actually yours. Yes, and now only are you taking what you what is what you think is yours

[00:20:52] God also affirms that and says that actually belongs to you regardless of what the owner of it thinks

[00:20:57] And regardless of what the society or the government of the laws think yes, it belongs to you objectively

[00:21:03] Because you need it to survive right

[00:21:05] Which is I mean it's a consistent view I know I know I know I even think instinctively

[00:21:12] We would feel that way. I mean if we knew about somebody a dad who has to break in

[00:21:17] And take you know breaks into a mansion and takes all their extra food without harming anybody

[00:21:22] Yeah, so they can feed his family of five mm-hmm

[00:21:25] I don't think anybody would really say that he should go to jail for that right

[00:21:29] Right or at least if they did they would they would

[00:21:33] Probably

[00:21:35] They would really have to struggle to get to that right

[00:21:39] It would be heartless and

[00:21:42] And then there's something there and I can almost hear like the detractor saying well

[00:21:46] But that data five should be working or something like that here

[00:21:49] We're we're sort of bracketing all those concerns and what Aquinas says is that this need can only be remedied in this way

[00:21:56] Like this is the only bread that that is accessible

[00:21:59] He's tried everything else right

[00:22:01] He's tried

[00:22:02] There just he's no more bread

[00:22:04] But this one rich dude just takes all the bread and it's just sitting in his house

[00:22:08] And he's not eating at all

[00:22:09] But there's this family five that's starving right there

[00:22:12] Of course, it's like that man is stealing from this because actually that's God's bread

[00:22:16] And it's God's bread for this man that if the guy is trying to feed his family and there's a soup kitchen

[00:22:22] That's open 24 seven. They're willing to give it any food. Yes, he chooses to

[00:22:26] Break into someone's house assuming he knows both options right then you can't and he can access that's right

[00:22:31] Yeah, right okay

[00:22:32] So it has to be that this has to be a last resort which like the cabin case

[00:22:36] It is the lathe there's literally nothing else

[00:22:39] So it has to be that this is the only thing that can remedy the need

[00:22:43] It has to be that it's a true case of need

[00:22:45] So like self preservation and it has to be that the other person doesn't need it

[00:22:50] So if those conditions are met that's the schema. That's the formula

[00:22:54] Then you can take it and it's not theft

[00:22:57] It's not robbery because it's not that person's property

[00:23:00] so it

[00:23:01] I think it actually encourages just to think about property a little bit more loose handedly

[00:23:06] And or open handedly and again like that affirmation that this is everything we have is actually gods

[00:23:13] And you got to wonder like when we have these really strong norms of private property

[00:23:17] Like this is my possession and like when we think about like oh people like our trespassing. That's just there

[00:23:23] There's sort of like it's like a slight against me personally and you think like well

[00:23:27] No, like everything is gods

[00:23:28] There's a sense of which I should be a little bit more open-handed sure right like that

[00:23:33] That's the instinct though. We should be cultivating or even if you go I have a right to this property

[00:23:36] We have a legal right and I think that God does recognize personal property

[00:23:41] I mean you see I mean he gets plots of land to the tribes in

[00:23:43] Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, or rather he actually ordains it in some circumstances but

[00:23:49] There's a tipping point in which yeah if there's a homeless guy or if there's somebody a family who

[00:23:56] To escape you know a torrential downpour order to escape

[00:24:00] You know people chasing them with knives or I don't know something like I'm trying to think of an extreme situation

[00:24:05] Then not only would it be like

[00:24:08] Not only would would you be looked down upon if you didn't allow them shelter in your property

[00:24:13] It would actually be morally wrong right and not only that but God would not recognize quote-unquote

[00:24:18] Your property rights in that situation because you're depriving them of the protection and security that

[00:24:23] Right had to deserve and there's a kind of failure to see yourself

[00:24:28] As a beneficiary of God's grace when you deprive others

[00:24:31] So imagine you've you've got all this stuff and you see the person in need and

[00:24:37] even even bracketing the

[00:24:40] Debate about whether or not they can come in and take what they need from you

[00:24:43] Just the attitude itself of I'm not I'm not going to give

[00:24:48] You fail to see yourself as a beneficiary of God's grace that you are merely a steward

[00:24:54] That language of stewardship comes up over and over and over again in the language of the church fathers and the reformers

[00:25:01] Everything that we have we are mirrors stewards of it. We've kind of lost sight of this thread that says

[00:25:07] every

[00:25:08] Like this is the the Kuiper quote like every square inch everything belongs to God

[00:25:13] literally every piece of

[00:25:16] Grass every ounce of grain everything belongs to God and God gifts it to us

[00:25:22] Oh, it's God gifts it to us

[00:25:24] But for what to meet our needs like human beings have needs our flourishing consists in

[00:25:29] Sociality in breaking bread together in having access to certain resources like that. That's what it is to be human being

[00:25:36] So God gives us resources for this instrumental purpose to keep us alive and help us thrive

[00:25:42] now when you have these disparities of

[00:25:46] I've got tons of this and someone doesn't have what they need

[00:25:50] It I can't fall back on saying well, this is my personal property like on what grounds?

[00:25:54] What grounds that you gathered at first that you got to at first that you inherited at first

[00:25:59] That's not going to work on this theistic picture of the world where everything is God's

[00:26:04] He's given it to you to use for what you need

[00:26:07] But if there's extra you have to give it away

[00:26:09] But one thing to notice here is that Aquinas and Calvin and the fathers are not saying that all

[00:26:14] Wealth disparities bad

[00:26:16] It's permissible that some people have more than others

[00:26:19] What's what's not okay is when you have more

[00:26:22] In somebody doesn't have their basic necessities. So imagine a world where everyone's basic necessities are met

[00:26:28] Then the rich no longer have an obligation to give to the poor then it would be charity

[00:26:33] It would be generosity because they'd be going over and above

[00:26:37] But it's not a matter of justice at that point interesting yeah

[00:26:41] That is not how we view it

[00:26:42] We think that if we give food and shelter basic needs to people that's charity right

[00:26:46] But that assumes it's not owed to them right that actually because God is God

[00:26:51] He has created all the resources of the world to sustain his creatures

[00:26:54] And if some of those creatures aren't don't have access to those resources

[00:26:58] Then we're not properly using the created order that he has given the creation that he's given right for its actual purpose

[00:27:04] So God will have a problem with that yeah, that's interesting

[00:27:06] So it's a moral obligation

[00:27:08] That there essentially be no people who don't have their

[00:27:12] Need basic needs now basic needs

[00:27:14] There's some yeah some there's some variation

[00:27:17] Sure, but I guess at the very base level

[00:27:20] It would have to be fed yes

[00:27:23] Protected from the elements yeah right food water shelter and water shelter and yeah, you know

[00:27:29] Now the interesting thing is they're like

[00:27:32] Is it

[00:27:34] Self-preservation

[00:27:36] Is it being violated if you live in a dangerous area

[00:27:39] I mean that's that's kind of on the gray area because yeah, that's not necessarily a

[00:27:46] An immediate threat the way that not being able to eat is yeah

[00:27:50] But is it a right you know when we say I think we have a basic right not to be killed

[00:27:55] Right absolutely right

[00:27:57] Does that extend to do you a right to be in a

[00:28:00] Atmosphere in which there's a low probability of that is that a right that everybody has

[00:28:05] I mean, I think that's going to be less clear for sure

[00:28:08] And Aquinas says the need has to be dire manifest and urgent

[00:28:13] And those are you know

[00:28:15] That's why we look to the paradigmatic cases like the storm the cabin

[00:28:19] John Valjean with the bread right there's gonna be other cases where like is it is it really but I think if if we're thinking of which

[00:28:26] Which tendency should we air closer to we were talking about this the other day

[00:28:30] There are gonna be virtues that are wise in between two extremes

[00:28:34] But in terms of airing we can air in terms of one of two ways

[00:28:37] We can air in terms of being more giving and more open and more open-handed or more cautious

[00:28:42] And I think given where we are as a culture our instinct is already to be more cautious

[00:28:47] So maybe if we want to cultivate the virtue and get closer to the way God actually wants us to live

[00:28:52] Is to practice more radically the open-handedness

[00:28:57] um

[00:28:58] And I think that that's it's really hard to do. It's it's not easy

[00:29:01] And I think part of the difficulty is because where we become so used to assert an extravagant lifestyle

[00:29:07] One that would have been totally foreign not just to the majority of humans who ever lived

[00:29:11] But especially too

[00:29:13] I think like the reformers the church fathers like Christians for most of our existence

[00:29:19] Just didn't have much and so now now that we have this concept of disposable income and leisure and

[00:29:25] I think these are just

[00:29:27] I mean, it's not just I think these are empirically new phenomena that most people have this in the West

[00:29:33] Now I think like all right talk to Calvin about this. What's he gonna say?

[00:29:35] Well he says if you if you have an estate and you're not using it or you have more than what you need

[00:29:41] Then sell it and give it to the poor like that that's straight from Calvin's mouth

[00:29:45] So this is not to the charge of this is communism

[00:29:48] It's definitely not communism. This is coming straight from them like Calvinism

[00:29:52] It's Calvinism. Yeah, it's better than Calvinism. It's Calvinism straight from the horses mouth

[00:29:57] I don't know why we say that phrase is so weird it's true from Calvin's mouth

[00:30:00] himself and it's not communism because it's not saying the state has to control all the resources

[00:30:05] The workers should own the means of production everyone should have exactly the same

[00:30:09] It's not saying any of that. It's not even giving a role to the state

[00:30:12] It's just saying in cases of dire need

[00:30:15] One can take what they need from someone's extra and you have an obligation to give it back because it literally belongs

[00:30:19] And coming is communism's fundamentally atheistic. That's right and this assumes

[00:30:24] Yeah, this assumes God right and then and for this whole thing to work. It's very interesting

[00:30:30] I'm reading a bit of 19 it says

[00:30:33] When you reap the harvest of your land you shall not reap your field right up to its edge

[00:30:38] Neither shall you gather the gleanings after you harvest and you shall not strip your vineyard bare

[00:30:42] Neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard

[00:30:46] You shall leave them for the poor and for the soldier or I'm the Lord your God

[00:30:50] And so I think

[00:30:51] Although this may not exactly

[00:30:54] articulate the principle that you're talking about

[00:30:56] You can see in the Old Testament code

[00:31:01] God's care for the poor and the soldier in this way. He basically says don't maximize

[00:31:06] Prophets on your land

[00:31:07] Let's leave

[00:31:09] A little bit on the edges so that the poor and soldier can eat from it

[00:31:12] And they part of that is is God is saying remember whose land this is right who gave this to you

[00:31:17] So I'm telling you he's not saying it's optional

[00:31:19] He's saying when you do this

[00:31:21] You must leave

[00:31:22] A little bit extra or rather you must not

[00:31:25] View your land is something that I'm giving to you so you can just maximize profit out of

[00:31:30] But that because it's gifted to you there are obligations right if you're going to have the land

[00:31:36] You cannot cultivate all of it right to allow some of the other people and then in the very next verse and verse 11

[00:31:42] You shall not steal shall not deal falsie you online or so right he doesn't view that yeah, I'm stealing right

[00:31:48] He actually views that as belonging

[00:31:51] To the soldier and to poor yeah, though that extra grain that belongs to them by God

[00:31:57] Who does have your heart right maybe every once in a while don't

[00:32:00] You know cultivate the edges of of your of your land. He says no actually this is a regulation. Yeah

[00:32:05] It's been given to them by God yeah

[00:32:07] And I mean if you're looking for new testament whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none

[00:32:12] Whoever's food is to do likewise the same principle is kind of implicit there this idea the two tunics principle

[00:32:19] You only need one

[00:32:21] So if you've got what you need then the extra thing belongs to the person who doesn't have

[00:32:25] And then first John if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother need yet closes his heart against him

[00:32:30] How does God's love abiding him little children? Let us not love in order talk but indeed and in truth

[00:32:36] God's love being manifested in the world and evidence that we have God's love is that we when we see the need

[00:32:43] We meet it if we have the super abundance or if we have the extra if we have the means to do so

[00:32:49] And I think for a lot of us we do have those means and so the question the practical question here is

[00:32:53] How can I begin to apply this and then it gets a little less clear

[00:32:56] But I think there's some obvious ways well, I think there's a skepticism though because you were saying in America, you know

[00:33:03] Is it better to

[00:33:05] Almost be

[00:33:07] generous, you know to a fault rather than overly cautious

[00:33:11] I think people are

[00:33:13] worried that

[00:33:16] You know it's there's another condition that the person who needs to preserve their life

[00:33:22] Who takes from someone else who doesn't need it that they're actually going to take that provision to preserve their life and not

[00:33:28] Do something else with it or do you like that yeah? I think people are hesitant about that. They're like where's this money going?

[00:33:34] Can I trust this nonprofit are these panhandler you know

[00:33:38] Fakers or what's going on like how do I actually help yeah, and we just don't want like Americans

[00:33:44] We just don't want to be suckered. Yeah, you know, yeah, I don't think it's necessarily bad but

[00:33:49] Um

[00:33:50] That means it's gonna take a little more work to figure out okay. How do you actually yeah?

[00:33:55] You know use your money

[00:33:57] So you talked a little bit about

[00:34:00] What good a hundred dollars can do so practically?

[00:34:04] What are some ways?

[00:34:05] To start to apply this yeah with a hundred bucks

[00:34:08] What can you do yeah, I mean?

[00:34:10] I'm totally I'm on board with the

[00:34:13] The skepticism of not everything that's labeled charity is actually good sure

[00:34:18] There's I mean you can read toxic charity. You can read when helping hurts there are great books written on how

[00:34:25] American well intention or western well intentioned initiatives actually have done

[00:34:31] Horrible damage to the developing world with charitable aid efforts not just in making people sort of dependent or reliant

[00:34:38] But actually like the Tom's shoes like

[00:34:42] Donating like donations of shoes and textiles have crippled entire industries in Africa that have had huge spill over effects

[00:34:51] That ruined national economies again well intentioned, but they weren't people on the ground doing R&D

[00:34:58] Understanding with communities need studying the economics like we need people doing all this stuff

[00:35:03] And so this is not a plea to like hey anything with the label charity go ahead and give you money to it

[00:35:09] But over the last couple decades there have been these new

[00:35:12] charity watchdog think tanks that are

[00:35:15] They assess

[00:35:17] Charities they assess these nonprofits and they put out lists every year in terms of which is most effective and how far your dollar can go

[00:35:24] And the methodologies are always like maybe we don't have to support all them like there's you know that a lot of these places are pro

[00:35:32] You know, let's try to curb over population and so they prescribe abortions or they fund

[00:35:38] tons of contraceptives and like we don't want to fund that stuff right but there's a lot of stuff that we can do that actually is in line with Christian values

[00:35:46] And so just some of the ones that I think are I mean close to close to my heart

[00:35:51] But also things that I think are pretty widely

[00:35:55] Widely attested to their efficacy like with $100 you can purchase 50

[00:36:01] Insecticide treated nets for malaria stricken parts of Africa

[00:36:07] which will

[00:36:08] For every 600 nets distributed. That's one child's life saved and 500 cases of malaria prevented. That's just $100

[00:36:16] Like that that's crazy that you can do that much good

[00:36:19] um

[00:36:20] With

[00:36:21] I mean $100 for most people is I mean it's it's not nothing for especially for those of us who are like middle lower middle class

[00:36:26] But again thinking about super abundance and need you can deworm 200 children

[00:36:33] You can provide clean water for 70 people for one whole year. You can protect a thousand people from iodine deficiency disorders

[00:36:41] Reverse for use for surgeries to reverse cataracts

[00:36:47] Fun 416

[00:36:48] Antibiotic distribution to prevent blinding tracomas and just the list go on and on like these

[00:36:54] These organizations are being independently evaluated in this whole movement of high-impact charity

[00:37:00] Which I mean there are some issues with it, but they're doing some work to try to move away from like the

[00:37:05] The old school anything that's nonprofit is good. Yeah, and that that's just not true like we should not as Christians

[00:37:13] Like this is God's money and so we want the money to be used well and not just thrown in any direction

[00:37:19] But also

[00:37:20] Maybe we should be more okay with being suckered than with being overly

[00:37:25] Stingy and maybe we use that sometimes as an excuse

[00:37:28] To cover up our own unwillingness to give and we just say well. I'm really skeptical

[00:37:34] I think we need to do some serious introspection and and examining of our own heart and motives

[00:37:38] And if you think that you might be prone to that bad motive

[00:37:42] Then maybe be okay with being suckered be okay with being taken advantage of right if someone asks you to walk with him one

[00:37:48] My go with them too

[00:37:50] Like this is this is the the Christian life is a call to being suckered sometimes, right? Like that's yeah, that's what we signed up for

[00:37:57] It's always one of those questions where at what point

[00:38:00] Do

[00:38:02] Do we take seriously some of the things that Jesus says yeah, you know, I mean, I think it's kind of like you have all the excuses in the in this

[00:38:08] SACE you don't do it and that's like okay, but at what point do you ever apply

[00:38:12] Giving your tunic right in person in need

[00:38:16] At what point do we

[00:38:18] you know

[00:38:19] Do we do we um

[00:38:22] Love our enemies at what point why don't you could go on and go on and go on? It's like never applies to your life

[00:38:27] If the situation never comes up. It's like

[00:38:29] Well, then you're not doing something right now. What okay so for this maximum impact charity

[00:38:35] What are the reservations you have because you said there's some issues with that yeah, and as a skeptical American

[00:38:40] I just want to know what those issues are yeah to let myself off the hook from everything right?

[00:38:44] That's that's always the worry. I just give you more ammo for the skepticism

[00:38:48] um, I think the way that these charities

[00:38:51] cash out high impact and efficiency is

[00:38:56] Always in terms of how much suffering have you minimized or how much how many lives have you saved and

[00:39:03] It's wedded to this utilitarian calculus that sees human

[00:39:08] Pleasure and human lives as just numbers to be maximized and human suffering to be minimized and so for example

[00:39:15] um a lot of these people would say for example

[00:39:19] Don't ever pay for the surgery to save the orphan here in Tallahassee

[00:39:24] Use that money to save a hundred kids overseas right and that's not Christianity right

[00:39:29] Christianity doesn't say more lives always are right right right human lives are infinitely precious

[00:39:35] And not just infinitely they can't even be compared with one another you can't say

[00:39:40] That a hundred lives are more precious than one and the reason for that we see in the in the gospels

[00:39:46] The good shepherd leaves the 994 the one he sees the one as worse risking the 994 in a sense like we don't we don't read that passage in that context

[00:39:55] No good shepherd in the right mind leaves 99 for one right

[00:39:59] But I think that shows the value the way that christianian thinks about the value of human lives

[00:40:04] We're not just trying to simply tally and say okay, well this equation or this

[00:40:10] Initiative will save more lives therefore we have to put our money there

[00:40:13] I think we should resist that and just

[00:40:15] The christian exhortation is to give money to people who need it and to do good and to love wherever it is

[00:40:22] Not i'm gonna

[00:40:24] I'm gonna

[00:40:24] I'm not gonna rescue this person here because I can do more good over here that instinct is one that we should push back on and so all of these

[00:40:32] All these utilitarian ways of thinking about the value of human life

[00:40:35] That's deeply un-Christian and we shouldn't we shouldn't fall into those temptations

[00:40:39] So that's the one cautionary

[00:40:41] Exortation that I would want us to come away from this is not hey

[00:40:45] Let's just think in terms of numbers for everything. Let's be wise stewards

[00:40:49] So let's take some of the insights of the high impact movement

[00:40:52] But let's not turn everything into aggregating numbers and reduce people to

[00:40:57] digits on a calculator

[00:40:58] Well said well said

[00:41:00] Well there you go

[00:41:01] Here you go so it's not that country. I mean it's not that you're not that country

[00:41:04] It's difficult to do but actually like when you think about it

[00:41:07] It's it's pretty clearly yeah, it's compelling and it's convicting

[00:41:10] Well, we're gonna put some links in our show notes to some charities

[00:41:14] Not charities some justice

[00:41:17] Justices justices yeah

[00:41:19] Some programs that if I impact that Paul

[00:41:24] Uh is personally donated to and and knows that they do good work

[00:41:29] So we'll put some links to that if you want to be a part of that and we appreciate you guys listening in

[00:41:34] And that's a good conversation. Hopefully it gets you thinking and uh, you know appreciate

[00:41:39] Appreciate your thought on this ball for sure

[00:41:42] Thanks for listening to our show if you want to access our whole archive of interviews and

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