The Olivet Discourse: Is it About the End of the World? with Jon Sedlak

[00:00:05] Welcome to the show. We have Jon Sedlak on today. He's written a book, Reading Matthew, Trusting Jesus. It's a fascinating book on the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. If you're not familiar with that, we will go through that and familiarize you with that. But he's written a book that is very well researched. Some of the footnotes are most of the page. That's how well researched it is. But a lot of thorough research on a passage that I think has sparked a lot of debate.

[00:00:35] Maybe even controversy over the years. Jon is the man here to set it all straight. Jon, thank you for joining us on the show.

[00:00:43] Thanks for having me. I really appreciate the invite.

[00:00:46] Your book is titled Reading Matthew, Trusting Jesus. It's a cool title. I'm kind of curious about the story behind that. I know sometimes publishers decide the title, but I didn't know if maybe you had a story behind why you named your book this or why it was named this.

[00:01:02] I'm fortunate to have chosen the title because the publisher wanted. We bounced back and forth a lot of different ideas. The original title was from basically a master's thesis that I did for Theopolis. It's the equivalent of it.

[00:01:21] Which I believe the original title was, which I believe the original title was, Explications of Transition.

[00:01:28] Which, as you can imagine.

[00:01:30] Way trendier.

[00:01:31] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the publisher was like, that's not going to work.

[00:01:35] So I happily purged that idea.

[00:01:39] But the more I thought about the book after actually writing it, the more I thought, what do I actually want people to walk away with?

[00:01:47] And I bounced ideas off of friends by text.

[00:01:53] And I even did a poll.

[00:01:58] And after spending all of that time and sending ideas to the publisher, they were still like, eh, we're kind of like this, we're kind of like that, but we don't like this, we don't like that.

[00:02:08] One day it dawned on me that when I'm really reading Matthew, I actually trust what Jesus is saying.

[00:02:16] And then bam, it hit me.

[00:02:18] So I think that the actual title came in my mind also while looking at a book by a Messianic Jew, Seth Postel.

[00:02:29] He's written a number of books, written Genesis 1, Adam as Israel, Genesis, the typology of Genesis 1 through 3.

[00:02:38] And he also wrote a book called Reading Moses, Seeing Jesus.

[00:02:43] Again, it's from a Messianic Jewish Christian perspective.

[00:02:48] Both worthwhile books to read, by the way.

[00:02:50] They're excellent.

[00:02:51] He's a student of John Salehammer, the Old Testament scholar.

[00:02:55] And again, lots of stimulating information to be found within the research that he writes about.

[00:03:02] Well, anyways, I remember distinctively thinking, you know, I like that.

[00:03:07] Reading Matthew, trusting Jesus, just like his title was Reading Moses, Seeing Jesus or something like that.

[00:03:13] That's what I remember.

[00:03:14] And then it was just a matter of picking the subtitle.

[00:03:17] The subtitle is Christian Tradition and First Century Fulfillment within Matthew 24 to 25.

[00:03:25] Well, that is what introduced me to your work.

[00:03:27] I mean, I remember talking to Dr. Matt Colvin, a friend of yours, friend of mine.

[00:03:32] And he was like, yeah, you know, this guy's got this book coming out, talking about that.

[00:03:37] Because I was reading about partial preterism and Matthew 24.

[00:03:42] I mean, it's just this really kind of majestic discourse from Jesus where he's prophesying about the destruction of the temple.

[00:03:49] He's talking about future events.

[00:03:51] And what was interesting was, and you deal a lot with this in your book about how this is a passage where certain scholars are going to say, Jesus was wrong.

[00:04:01] Right.

[00:04:02] Or this was written.

[00:04:03] There are many different excuses made throughout history.

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] Right.

[00:04:07] Right.

[00:04:07] And some of them would take its conclusion you can't trust Matthew as a writer or all these different things.

[00:04:14] And so how you take this passage actually has a lot of ripple effects in a lot of other areas.

[00:04:22] Yeah.

[00:04:23] And there's also the problem of being perceived as some kind of deviant by suggesting that it's not entirely about the end of our world.

[00:04:33] Right.

[00:04:34] So that also takes place, and that's part of the development of thought that distrusts the gospel.

[00:04:41] There's a lot of great and credible, quote-unquote, liberal scholarship, critical scholarship, that is definitely worth familiarizing oneself with to realize that they don't actually distrust what the words in the page are saying.

[00:04:59] But they also do want to avoid being perceived as deviance within their own guild, within their own communities of thought.

[00:05:09] So it's very complex, especially in modern history.

[00:05:13] How did you get interested in studying Matthew 24 with the depth that you have?

[00:05:19] I don't know how you get interested in it.

[00:05:21] It's a long story.

[00:05:22] Do you want to hear the whole story?

[00:05:24] I mean, it all really starts with me being raised as a confessionally performed Christian.

[00:05:31] Westminster, confessional standards, and three forms of unity.

[00:05:37] I did learn late.

[00:05:38] I didn't know this at the time, but I was in a quirky tradition that actually considered preterism and partial preterism as something very threatening and dangerous.

[00:05:47] And it's the kind of thing that liberals believe.

[00:05:51] There's all kinds of different weird thoughts.

[00:05:53] It wasn't part of what I grew up with.

[00:05:55] I grew up with a very traditional, actually, I shouldn't say traditional, very old-fashioned, outdated version of post-millennialism or an amillennialism that held to something called historicist interpretation of prophecy.

[00:06:13] So everything's really futuristic-oriented and in detail about our present generation and kingdom to come.

[00:06:19] And I apologize for that.

[00:06:24] Anyway, so that's part of my background.

[00:06:29] Preterism was not allowed to be on my radar when I was a young man.

[00:06:34] And then in my early 20s, John MacArthur, who I loved and trusted for whatever reason, probably loved him as a dynamic speaker.

[00:06:42] He published a book on the second coming of Christ.

[00:06:46] And he's not at all.

[00:06:48] He wasn't at all part of my tribe, obviously.

[00:06:50] Being kind of dispensational, definitely premillennial.

[00:06:56] And I wasn't at that time.

[00:06:57] But I trusted his reasoning.

[00:07:00] I trusted his passion.

[00:07:01] I remember picking up that book, which I think was published early 2000s.

[00:07:10] And it was probably 2007, 2008 when I picked it up.

[00:07:14] And I remember him in an introduction.

[00:07:16] He was discussing Preterist, Destruction of Jerusalem, AD 70 for the Olivet Discourse.

[00:07:24] And he came up with his reasons to really attach heresy to everyone that promoted that view without being, you know, going terribly overboard.

[00:07:33] He used very slippery language and summarized it briefly and created a snapshot that I thought immediately was both intriguing because I never knew of it before and alarming.

[00:07:44] Like, yeah, I agree.

[00:07:45] This is heresy.

[00:07:46] Who kind of crazy person would want to believe this stuff?

[00:07:49] And then as he chugged along in his futuristic commentary of Matthew 24, he brings up on occasion in the beginning parts of the commentary more of preterism.

[00:08:00] But when he finally gets to the, you know, the so-called cosmic signs and where the actual term for the parousia, the presence of Christ or the coming of Christ, arrives in verse 20, he just starts.

[00:08:14] He talks about preterism again in this lengthy chunk and how preterists don't believe that this is literal imagery.

[00:08:23] And then he quoted Gary DeMar and gave all these Bible verses from the Old Testament.

[00:08:28] And I did the crazy thing, and I actually looked up those Bible verses.

[00:08:32] And I was like, wait a minute.

[00:08:34] Like, we're supposed to be using Scripture to interpret Scripture.

[00:08:39] This is a principle that MacArthur holds to.

[00:08:42] This is a principle that theoretically, you know, Gary DeMar, whoever he was citing, adhered to.

[00:08:49] And this isn't irrational.

[00:08:52] This seems to be very close language to what Jesus is saying or Matthew is saying.

[00:08:59] And the only alternative that MacArthur provided was very literal interpretation, like when Christ returns bodily, according to this prophecy, the whole world will be lit up with lightning.

[00:09:17] And I just remember thinking, what, huh?

[00:09:21] And then he's like, you know, stars are going to fall from heaven, this big cosmic disaster.

[00:09:26] And preterists are wrong because they don't believe this is literal.

[00:09:29] And I just remember thinking for the first time, you know what?

[00:09:31] How would that work if stars fell from heaven?

[00:09:34] Like, I need to look into this other view.

[00:09:36] And I did.

[00:09:37] I purchased some books.

[00:09:38] I looked into them, and I thought, well, this isn't insane.

[00:09:42] They're trying to be scriptural.

[00:09:44] They're trying to work with existing, not only language, but they're trying to work within the framework of first century Israel in connection with the history of the people of God prior to that.

[00:09:57] So it did not seem nutso to me.

[00:09:59] And that's what began my studies.

[00:10:03] Sorry about that.

[00:10:04] Someone texted me.

[00:10:07] I didn't.

[00:10:08] I wasn't fully on board.

[00:10:10] I became aware of all kinds of accusations of heterodoxy and so on and so forth orbiting it.

[00:10:16] But I was personally persuaded when really digging into the details that a lot of people are just talking past each other, and they don't want people to believe this because this isn't really a popular belief.

[00:10:27] And they don't want it to become a popular belief for many reasons.

[00:10:32] And I studied scripture.

[00:10:34] I loved the gospels.

[00:10:35] I was persuaded that there was definitely something to partial preterism.

[00:10:39] And, I don't know, the more I studied, the more I, well, I should say, the more that I got involved in actually teaching scripture, the more I realized that I was accountable for not abusing the text that I was teaching.

[00:10:55] I really wanted to represent it as best as I could.

[00:11:00] And a Bible study started around 2010.

[00:11:04] I enjoyed books.

[00:11:09] They're on my shelf here.

[00:11:11] Like Davies and Allison's Highly Technical Three-Volume Commentary.

[00:11:15] I enjoyed R.T.

[00:11:17] Francis' Commentary on Matthew and the New International Commentary of the New Testament.

[00:11:22] I became acquainted with certain views that I really liked while studying Matthew's gospel.

[00:11:29] And more or less out of nowhere, I stumbled across a printed essay by Peter Lightheart about Jesus as Israel.

[00:11:38] And that is what really launched my love for Matthew's gospel, my love for the story being told, where it wasn't so much about Matthew 24 per se, but Matthew 24 made so much more sense in light of the broad typology of what was being written.

[00:12:02] I remember being somewhat critical of it, but again, the more I invested in the details, the more I was persuaded that it provided, in the very least, a healthy balance to all the other commentaries available.

[00:12:18] But there was actually more to it that had yet to be explored, and I really enjoyed doing that.

[00:12:23] I made that part of my Bible study.

[00:12:24] I took lots of notes over a Bible study that actually lasted two years.

[00:12:28] So we would meet for an hour and a half to two hours every Monday night for nearly two years before I finished the study on Matthew's gospel.

[00:12:35] And that was a blast.

[00:12:37] Can you define preterism just for our listeners?

[00:12:40] How would you explain what partial preterism or preterism is?

[00:12:44] Well, when I say preterism, I actually just mean it in the orthodox sense without extrapolating beyond its plain meaning.

[00:12:50] And the meaning is that what many passages in the New Testament are imagined to be about nowadays might be misunderstood if we imagined many prophecies of the New Testament being about our future or the end of our world.

[00:13:15] Instead, preterism describes statements, historical statements and prophecy as being fulfilled in our past.

[00:13:24] And in particular, since it's an actual view of New Testament scholarship, it's trying to hone in on first century fulfillment, not trying to wander too far beyond that.

[00:13:35] So when you talk about preterism, it's another way of saying a strong belief that the New Testament clearly teaches first century fulfillment of something cataclysmic, something cosmic, something essential for the New Covenant to begin unhindered.

[00:13:55] Well, you have a very thorough look at theologians throughout the history of the Church, all the way up until now, basically, wrestling with Matthew 24 because those issues that you're talking about are very present there.

[00:14:11] So, I mean, famously, it begins, the disciples, in verse 3, they show up privately and they say to Jesus,

[00:14:17] Jesus, when will these things be?

[00:14:19] And Jesus is telling, you know, not one stone upon another that will not be thrown down, thrown into the temple.

[00:14:25] He's talking about the temple's destruction.

[00:14:27] Yeah.

[00:14:27] And then the disciples follow up and say, when will these things be?

[00:14:33] And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

[00:14:37] So I think most people would say there's at least two questions there.

[00:14:40] There might be three.

[00:14:41] But generally, it seems like the traditional view, and then you talked a little bit about MacArthur and all these folks, is that when will these things be?

[00:14:53] Talking about the temple.

[00:14:54] And then there's another question being asked about the end of human history, right?

[00:15:00] The end of this age, when final judgment comes and all these types of stuff.

[00:15:05] And what's fascinating about your book, and I think what's unique about your book, is you kind of trace the lineage of that divergence.

[00:15:13] And it seems like what you're saying is with preterism, at least from what I took from your book, is you're saying that it's actually talking about the same time horizon.

[00:15:21] The coming of the Son of Man, the end of the age, is talking about the destruction of the temple.

[00:15:26] Whereas traditional interpreters, they split it.

[00:15:29] They go, some of it's about the temple.

[00:15:31] Maybe some people say none of it's about the temple, but at least a lot of people are saying some of it's about the temple.

[00:15:36] But then there's other stuff that's about the end of history.

[00:15:40] And you go through a lot of people.

[00:15:43] I just wanted to hear what you comment on that.

[00:15:45] I'm trying to distill a very complicated kind of look.

[00:15:49] Well, the book came out of me writing a final paper, out of many papers, for the Theopolis Institute.

[00:15:58] And then being asked if I could turn it into a book because it was enjoyed by the men that I had to give my public defense of, of my initial thesis.

[00:16:11] What I was doing in my initial thesis was I begin with early church fathers around the dawn of the 5th century.

[00:16:22] So you're talking, you know, 400s.

[00:16:27] And whenever we get existing commentaries, commentaries that have lasted, that are readily accessible, famous figures like Hilary of Poitie or St. Jerome, Jerome of Stradon, Chrysostom, and also some other works attributed to him.

[00:16:42] When you look at their commentaries, they are aware of these questions being asked of Jesus and that these questions are asked differently in Matthew's version of the gospel.

[00:16:59] Jesus is asked more questions in Matthew's gospel than in the same version of questions in Mark 13 and Luke 21.

[00:17:10] And around this time, in the early patristic sources that we have, they are, they're making comments where they're clearly affirming first century fulfillment somewhere.

[00:17:23] Somewhere in Jesus's initial response between verses 4 and 36.

[00:17:29] And I noticed that pattern.

[00:17:33] I thought it was really interesting.

[00:17:35] I thought it was especially interesting that John Chrysostom treats the majority of it as first century fulfilled.

[00:17:42] And he's pretty adamant about it.

[00:17:47] And for the initial paper that I wrote that became a book, all I really did was say, hey, this kind of methodology exists in the early church where Jesus is asked three questions in Matthew's version of the gospel, of the Olivet Discourse.

[00:18:04] And they all think that Jesus is answering the questions in the order he was asked.

[00:18:09] So he's asked the first question, when will these things happen?

[00:18:12] So Jesus answers that question first.

[00:18:15] And then he is asked the question, and what will be the sign of your coming or your parousia, your presence?

[00:18:22] What will be the sign of that end of the end of the age or the conclusion of the age?

[00:18:26] And that two-part second question, these church fathers, they all imagined how to deal with their future.

[00:18:37] Some of them imagined it to be very imminent in their future, by the way.

[00:18:40] But I don't deal with that kind of stuff in my book.

[00:18:44] And this is the methodology, is that Jesus has asked three questions, two or three questions, and he answers them in the order.

[00:18:50] And it was interesting to me noticing that first century fulfillment is clearly on their radar.

[00:18:56] And so I traced a bunch of that in my initial research to Eusebius and Josephus' works, and into early church fathers like Origen.

[00:19:10] And then I just deal with my own research of Matthew's gospel.

[00:19:14] What do you do when you actually read Matthew's gospel in light of the thesis that Peter Lightheart has presented,

[00:19:20] where Jesus is being portrayed as Israel throughout it, typologically?

[00:19:23] Well, if you work through the logic of that, there's an argument from Matthew 24 being entirely about the destruction of the temple as the typology of Israel's history.

[00:19:32] It fulfills that.

[00:19:34] And then it concludes with the death and resurrection of Israel, you know, death and resurrection of Jesus,

[00:19:40] and the Great Commission of Jesus, just like it was with Cyrus the Great.

[00:19:49] So I developed a chapter saying, hey, there's this big picture of Matthew's gospel and how to read it just as a gospel by itself.

[00:19:58] You've got church fathers before that that think that when you finally get to this chapter, Jesus asks three questions and he answers them in the order.

[00:20:06] But if you actually look closely at Matthew's gospel, Jesus is not answering in the order he's asked.

[00:20:10] He's actually answering the questions in the reverse order he's asked.

[00:20:13] So then I thought to myself, well, if this is true, and it seems in every level that it's true,

[00:20:18] certainly someone in church history has written about this.

[00:20:23] I did find a number of people that are aware of this.

[00:20:27] But as I combed through 1,500 years of church history that are trying to get the most explicit, logical connections of how to interpret this transition from past fulfillment to future fulfillment,

[00:20:41] what I realized is I had a book.

[00:20:42] I had a book where I was like, wow, this is really interesting how everybody's making the same assumption that Jesus is answering the first question first and the last question last.

[00:20:51] This is really something to write about.

[00:20:53] So I wrote my paper about that and there were just a bunch of gaps that I had to fill in to turn it into a book and then a bunch of appendices to strengthen the argument.

[00:21:01] So that's how I got to the research that's provided in this book.

[00:21:06] So we have these questions, right?

[00:21:09] You were mentioning three questions that the disciples ask.

[00:21:14] And you're saying that the first question is, when will these things be?

[00:21:18] Assuming when is the temple going to be destroyed?

[00:21:22] When are the stones going to be thrown down?

[00:21:24] Yeah, these things are very explicit in the Greek.

[00:21:27] And I don't know any church fathers that I cover in my book or even modern scholars that deny that that's the obvious historical reference.

[00:21:38] So there's a historical consensus there, at least when we're talking about the answer to the first question.

[00:21:45] It's a first century horizon that they're talking about 70 AD, the destruction of the temple, that that's a pretty clear line that you can trace to the early church fathers through the medievals.

[00:21:55] Across all of Christian tradition.

[00:21:58] I don't even have a memory of a single commentary where modern or otherwise dispensational or otherwise that denies that.

[00:22:06] That seems very obvious in its own literary context.

[00:22:10] So that's talking...

[00:22:11] I'm not aware of anybody that would disagree with that.

[00:22:13] Right.

[00:22:14] So that would be him saying, so what's the answer to when is the temple going to be destroyed?

[00:22:19] Traditional interpreters are going to say that that's wars, rumors of wars.

[00:22:24] This must take place and does not yet.

[00:22:26] Nation against nation.

[00:22:27] Kingdom against kingdom.

[00:22:27] Famous and earthquakes.

[00:22:29] Beginning of earth pangs.

[00:22:30] All that stuff.

[00:22:31] Many will fall away, betray each other.

[00:22:34] Love many grow cold.

[00:22:35] And gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed through the whole world as a testament to all nations.

[00:22:39] And then the end will come.

[00:22:40] That's an interesting tag at the end of that.

[00:22:43] But you would say that in your research, that little section is referring to the destruction of the temple.

[00:22:49] And that's fairly unanimous.

[00:22:51] Maybe with some fuzzy edges.

[00:22:53] Yeah.

[00:22:53] Yeah.

[00:22:54] And I've recently developed a chart of it for another book that I'm writing to help break down how different the views are across 2,000 years of history.

[00:23:04] But yeah, somewhere between verses 4 and verses 36, you will find across Christian tradition a variety of finding first century fulfillment there.

[00:23:17] Right.

[00:23:18] And I encourage everyone listening to maybe you can pause and read through Matthew 25 because there's so many familiar – a lot of people may have heard snippets of this.

[00:23:26] You've got the abomination of desolation.

[00:23:28] You've got pregnant women who are nursing infants and the person in the field not turning back and all kinds of stuff.

[00:23:38] And so, yeah, like you're saying –

[00:23:40] Wars, rumors of wars.

[00:23:40] Wars, rumors of wars.

[00:23:42] Right.

[00:23:42] All this kind of stuff.

[00:23:43] And so it seems like in the history – and this is what I thought was very interesting when you're looking through all these commentaries on it is that they're all like, all right, at some point, this shifts to the future.

[00:23:53] Right.

[00:23:54] And that's like the assumption.

[00:23:56] But they're very different on where they put that marker at.

[00:24:00] Yes.

[00:24:00] Am I reading that correctly?

[00:24:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:24:03] I mean, St. Hillary of Poitiers sees first century fulfillment only within the first 14 verses.

[00:24:12] St. Jerome is within the – it's a mix between the fourth and the 25th verse.

[00:24:19] Chrysostom is categorically, verses 4 to 28, 100% first century fulfillment.

[00:24:25] Then there's the scholar that's attributed to the works of Chrysostom.

[00:24:30] He's known as Pseudo-Chrysostom.

[00:24:31] And he likewise goes all the way up to verse 20 as saying this is all first century.

[00:24:38] Transitions – the transitional verse expands more and more and more throughout time all the way up to verse 36.

[00:24:46] The more that church fathers interact with the katina, the chain of tradition that is preserved, that they're utilizing.

[00:24:58] This really only shows up in a few footnotes, some which are lengthy, to make these connections because I couldn't make it – it could be its own book in its own right.

[00:25:11] But what's really happening throughout church history is that these church fathers are early on, are aware of Eusebius' – of Caesarea's – his canons, his way of tabling the Gospels and finding parallel passages.

[00:25:30] And that gives somebody like Augustine, who has correspondence with Jerome.

[00:25:34] They have an edition of Eusebius' canon tables that helps them quickly find parallels among the Gospels.

[00:25:43] But when they're able to do that, they realize, wait a minute, part of the discourse in Matthew 24 is in chapter 17 of Luke's Gospel and in chapter 21.

[00:25:52] And so they come up with rationales to explain why one thing is clearly partially first century and another verse like chapter 17 is not first century.

[00:26:02] It's entirely about the end of the world.

[00:26:03] But as these church fathers use these systems independent of one another, and then they pick up – later church fathers pick up commentaries within their tradition, and then they cite it.

[00:26:19] What you have later on are people like Thomas Aquinas, and there are many other katinas, chains of commentaries that are recorded in history, especially in the Byzantine world.

[00:26:29] There's quite a few that are used to basically comb through a variety of respectable church fathers and their mixed interpretations of something like the Olivet Discourse.

[00:26:40] And then as time goes on, you start seeing an awareness in scholarship where they're like, wait a minute.

[00:26:47] Not everybody can be right about these verses because Matthew says this.

[00:26:54] Jesus says this.

[00:26:55] This church father says that a transition takes place in this verse.

[00:26:58] This church father says a transition takes place in that verse.

[00:27:01] They can't both be right.

[00:27:02] And so my book is really not telling my audience how to interpret the transition or where to, but rather showing a history of there being a transition because so much of Christian tradition is assuming that the Olivet Discourse involves partial first century fulfillment and end of our world fulfillment.

[00:27:30] And that there must be a transition that takes place somewhere in the text to account for that.

[00:27:36] And that most importantly, Jesus is asked two or three questions and he answers them.

[00:27:41] He responds to them in the order which he was asked.

[00:27:44] And that's what I'm really tracing.

[00:27:47] Because if you can follow that simple methodology, I think it becomes clear that there is a traditional methodology that's parroted throughout 2,000 years of Christian history,

[00:27:59] but everyone's interacting with it different because everyone can see the elephant in the room.

[00:28:03] Everyone can see the problem with doing this.

[00:28:06] The consensus is that there must be a transition, but the consensus on how to interpret the rest of the discourse is just not there.

[00:28:14] Well, I mean, you can tell.

[00:28:15] I mean, if you just look through it, you can see why they had so much debate over this.

[00:28:19] Because, I mean, I'm just looking through this and it's like, okay, first century, first century, first century.

[00:28:24] Then boom, verse 14, gospel came to proclaim throughout the world, 12 nations, then the end.

[00:28:29] Okay, that's weird.

[00:28:30] And then you go to abomination of desolation.

[00:28:32] You're like, okay, okay.

[00:28:33] I could see this being, you know, awaiting the destruction of the temple.

[00:28:38] You're seeing all these things happen, all this stuff.

[00:28:39] Then you're like, okay, false Christs are popping up.

[00:28:42] Okay, I could see that still.

[00:28:43] There's probably some way to talk about the first century.

[00:28:45] And then it's boom, the end.

[00:28:47] Lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west.

[00:28:50] Coming of the Son of Man.

[00:28:51] And you're like, that sounds like the second coming.

[00:28:53] And then you have boom, you know, the sun darkened, moon gave its light.

[00:28:56] And you're like, well, that definitely has got to be second coming.

[00:29:00] And then it's a question of you just like, okay, well, now you feel schizophrenic because you're like.

[00:29:05] Where did the transition happen?

[00:29:06] What happened?

[00:29:08] Why is Jesus flipping back and forth like this?

[00:29:12] And, you know, the early church fathers, they don't have the space.

[00:29:17] They don't contribute as much space as modern commentaries do.

[00:29:24] However, from early church fathers to medieval fathers to later Reformation scholars that are in my book to modern commentaries,

[00:29:31] everyone's trying to come up with an explanation as to not just why did Matthew write it this way,

[00:29:36] but why did Jesus respond this way?

[00:29:39] Right.

[00:29:40] I do bring this up tongue in cheek in a few places in my book, probably most notably in my own memory with the section on John Calvin's exegesis,

[00:29:49] where John Calvin is not alone in this view.

[00:29:53] But he actually just explicitly says, hey, the apostles were wrong with what they thought Jesus meant.

[00:29:58] Right.

[00:29:58] Yeah.

[00:29:59] And he's like, they had to have been wrong.

[00:30:00] They couldn't have possibly imagined, you know, the truth.

[00:30:05] They were.

[00:30:06] He says something to the effect of that.

[00:30:09] There's just this expectation of them as little children that they just inherited.

[00:30:13] And they grew up with this.

[00:30:15] So now they're asking this question just like a bunch of children.

[00:30:18] And I'm amused by excuses like that because I think somewhere in that chapter I say, you know, it's really interesting that

[00:30:26] John Calvin, a well-respected, brilliant, pious man, would presume as much,

[00:30:33] but he wouldn't.

[00:30:34] It never dawns on him that he actually could be the one with faulty assumptions about what Matthew and Jesus and the apostles are imagining.

[00:30:42] Ultimately, it's what my book is about is trying to actually explore Christian tradition as it actually is and not sugarcoat it.

[00:30:53] There's something that's missing.

[00:30:55] And I actually think that just reading Matthew as it is and trusting Jesus and what he says is more than sufficient to have understood the gospel in the first century.

[00:31:07] And everything else after that needs to be sorted through.

[00:31:12] Well, I remember what kind of opened my eyes to just the preterist interpretation was that famous, these things will happen within a generation.

[00:31:23] You know, Jesus talking about, truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

[00:31:28] And I was like, wow, all feels like everything he was just talking about is going to happen within the lifetime of his disciples.

[00:31:37] But one question I had, though, was you mentioned all these church fathers.

[00:31:41] I'm like, how did this not get passed down?

[00:31:46] Like the first generation after the apostles, they understood what it meant.

[00:31:49] And then it just got lost over time.

[00:31:54] I genuinely believe that there are traditions passed down through Christian communities from the apostolic era that you're not going to find in, for example, like the New Testament.

[00:32:10] And there's room to explore that.

[00:32:15] For a Christian who's limiting everything that they know and understand and trust and will invest all of their epistemological effort in as being limited to the New Testament, then yeah, sure.

[00:32:25] You might come up with theories that certain things are lost or have been lost.

[00:32:29] I think a lot of early church thought was organic and that some views mature Christian communities really believed in and they do come from the earliest times and there's no way to prove or disprove it per se.

[00:32:45] I mean, I'm I'm credibly orthodox.

[00:32:49] Well, I'm wondering more like I'm sorry.

[00:32:53] I make it.

[00:32:53] No, I guess all I was going to say is that like first century fulfillment, I don't think it's actually lost.

[00:33:04] And I and I think that there are.

[00:33:07] I think there's much there needs to be much more exploration and how to make sense of what we perceived as being lost, but which is what is actually just an organic development of doctrine of things that just are not presented in the New Testament.

[00:33:20] They're just come from Christian communities that existed.

[00:33:22] Well, I'm saying, though, if if there was a stream of Christian communities that held to a total first century fulfillment of Matthew 24, if they read it all the way through, then why are all the commentators who would have been aware of that?

[00:33:38] There are controversies that have been suppressed.

[00:33:42] Well, part of it is that commentaries on the New Testament are not an abundant thing.

[00:33:46] Origin of Alexander is the very first person to really come up with an abundance of things.

[00:33:50] And we don't have a lot of his stuff because of later councils deeming some of his views as heretical.

[00:33:58] So there there's it's a real shame that we don't have all of his works.

[00:34:05] But there are hints of controversies that come in.

[00:34:09] I did not mention this in my book.

[00:34:11] This is something that came up at the defense of my original paper.

[00:34:14] But I remember somewhere in my research when you start studying the quarter deciman controversy, the dating of Pascha and early Christian and diverse Christian communities and Melito of Sardis and his works of Paripasca or his homilies.

[00:34:34] And how those homilies become one homily on Pascha and some fragments that the quarter deciman controversy does line up with preterist convictions.

[00:34:50] And that's part of the problem of the controversy.

[00:34:54] This is this is again, this is an area of research that no one has tapped into.

[00:34:59] It's something that I have personally noticed.

[00:35:01] Like there was a part of the controversy and it's certainly not all of it or even most of it involved Christians who thought that.

[00:35:12] They only needed to celebrate, for example, the Lord's Supper once a year around the celebration of Pascha.

[00:35:20] This is not the quarter deciman controversy, but it's involved in it.

[00:35:23] There are some communities who actually were strict enough where they didn't believe in like weekly Eucharistic celebrations.

[00:35:30] Just because that faded away that so much had been fulfilled in the past.

[00:35:33] All of that gets obliterated historically once the quarter deciman controversy is settled.

[00:35:42] And that's before the first ecumenical council.

[00:35:44] You're talking really early disputes.

[00:35:47] So there was you're reading that you're going there.

[00:35:50] There was at least something in the air in which there was a stream where people are going, this is all first century fulfillment.

[00:35:55] Yeah.

[00:35:56] And then over time, the silence is deafening.

[00:35:58] The silence itself is actually deafening.

[00:36:01] Why can we read?

[00:36:03] There are these letters of Ignatius of Antioch.

[00:36:07] There are seven that are called the middle recension letters of Ignatius of Antioch.

[00:36:12] Why in them does Ignatius have such confidence that certain things like resurrection and ascension are going to happen once he dies?

[00:36:20] I mean, he's he's at least as far as the legend goes.

[00:36:24] He's the little boy of Matthew 18.

[00:36:27] That's that Jesus says to turn around and come to him unless you become like a little child.

[00:36:32] The orthodox legend is that that was Ignatius of Antioch.

[00:36:35] But why is his language not dealing with preterism or first century fulfillment in any like explicit proof texting way, but in a lived way?

[00:36:44] By the way, controversy abounds as to how to interpret Ignatius of Antioch.

[00:36:49] But the language is very striking.

[00:36:52] The expectations of how the world cosmically has changed with the end of the old covenant with the Christ event.

[00:37:00] He's really clear about that.

[00:37:03] Gotcha.

[00:37:04] He's not the only one.

[00:37:05] I think that there are hints of it in all of the apostolic fathers except for second Clement.

[00:37:10] And there are ways to tweak the epistle of Diognetus to make it not fit in.

[00:37:14] I've I think there's there's so much more exploration that has to be done with the apostolic fathers and early church documents to discuss the possibility of an organic transition.

[00:37:26] Where it was well understood that that one message of Jesus was clearly the end of the old covenant.

[00:37:34] And it ended with the divorce of the Israel associated with that covenant and the end of the temple, which was essential to it, of which synagogues were an extension.

[00:37:46] And I think that many early church fathers knew that without, you know, without being anti-Semitic or anything like that.

[00:37:56] They just they just knew that that the world changed when the temple when Herod's temple was destroyed.

[00:38:02] Right.

[00:38:02] And they would have world changed.

[00:38:03] They would have associated that world change of the temple being destroyed, the end of the old covenant.

[00:38:10] And your thesis, I guess, would be that that was assumed that the world changes what's being described or symbolized with this apocalyptic language of sun dark and moon not giving light.

[00:38:25] Stars falling from heaven, so on and so forth.

[00:38:28] Is that for?

[00:38:29] Yes.

[00:38:30] And for two reasons.

[00:38:31] One is what we would now consider Old Testament language, prophetic, authoritative language describing empires falling, monarchs falling, kings and their provinces being laid waste with the same language of celestial bodies falling and being darkened and not giving their light.

[00:38:53] Isaiah has multiple references.

[00:38:55] Jeremiah has some.

[00:38:56] The minor prophets combined in the book of the 12 have them as well.

[00:39:01] So one aspect is like, well, any anybody familiar with the Old Testament can see that this language works together.

[00:39:07] As soon as you start bringing in apocalyptic language, that is something that is largely foreign as a literary genre until the second temple period.

[00:39:21] And what we what scholars I happen to agree with this.

[00:39:25] You don't have to agree with this if you don't like to, but I think it's worth exploring.

[00:39:29] I think that apocalyptic language.

[00:39:33] Is intrinsically symbolically political.

[00:39:38] It is intentionally cryptic.

[00:39:41] Whether they are real visionary experiences.

[00:39:45] I mean, that's that's something that everybody can debate about.

[00:39:49] But the language and the symbolism and the themes are clearly political.

[00:39:56] And not trying to be terribly explicit by design.

[00:40:01] I find that compelling when we start talking about quote unquote apocalyptic literature.

[00:40:06] And that makes a lot of sense within a first century Roman Empire context all the way across it.

[00:40:12] There are a lot of reasons to be cryptic.

[00:40:15] To speak cryptically, to write cryptically, to instruct cryptically.

[00:40:21] Right.

[00:40:21] And that would explain why are you going to you're making a political message in the sense of you're talking about the end of.

[00:40:30] A religious order you're talking about.

[00:40:33] Talking about the end of a world, really.

[00:40:35] A whole ordered arrangement of civilization of how to view one's place as a child or a servant of God.

[00:40:44] And where this relationship with God.

[00:40:48] How this permeates the rest of the world as we know it.

[00:40:52] Yeah.

[00:40:52] And all of that really did end in the first century.

[00:40:55] Just as much as it ended with the destruction of the first temple.

[00:41:00] Right.

[00:41:00] So it's a different way of viewing apocalyptic language.

[00:41:04] Or viewing how Jesus is speaking.

[00:41:07] So I mean I'm looking at again verse 29 of Matthew 24.

[00:41:12] Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

[00:41:15] The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

[00:41:17] And the stars will fall from heaven.

[00:41:18] And the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

[00:41:21] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the son of man.

[00:41:24] And then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

[00:41:26] And they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[00:41:29] And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call.

[00:41:32] And they will gather his elect from the four winds.

[00:41:34] From one end of heaven to the other.

[00:41:36] I mean I read this.

[00:41:38] I'm like I get why they think this is the second coming.

[00:41:39] And even now when I'm reading I'm like.

[00:41:41] Sure.

[00:41:41] Man.

[00:41:42] That's.

[00:41:43] How do you.

[00:41:43] Squeezing into the first century feels like you've got this like overstuffed suitcase.

[00:41:47] And you're just trying to pack everything.

[00:41:49] You know.

[00:41:50] Into it.

[00:41:51] Yeah.

[00:41:52] Yeah.

[00:41:54] It gets even more complicated if you.

[00:41:56] If you try to.

[00:41:59] If you try to operate with.

[00:42:02] The variety of assumptions that are found across scholarship.

[00:42:06] Boy oh boy oh boy.

[00:42:08] Like modern scholars don't assume.

[00:42:11] That.

[00:42:13] That Mark has any intrinsic.

[00:42:15] It's impossible for Mark to have borrowed Mark or Luke.

[00:42:18] So there are lots of assumptions about who's borrowing what.

[00:42:21] What sources they're borrowing from in addition to Mark.

[00:42:25] In order to craft a.

[00:42:29] An.

[00:42:30] An.

[00:42:30] End of the world scenario.

[00:42:32] That's somehow in their imaginary horizon.

[00:42:34] But like we as Christians.

[00:42:36] We can pick up a commentary.

[00:42:38] And.

[00:42:39] We're kind of stuck with every individual commentators.

[00:42:44] Expertise.

[00:42:45] And approach.

[00:42:46] And assumptions.

[00:42:47] And we have to more or less work with that.

[00:42:49] But if you look at the broad history of Christian tradition.

[00:42:52] Of doing that with the Alephid discourse.

[00:42:54] It's actually alarming to see just how many people.

[00:42:59] Don't know what to do with this language.

[00:43:01] And I think that's telling because.

[00:43:04] Those.

[00:43:05] Commentators that were very familiar with second temple Jewish literature.

[00:43:10] Oriental literature.

[00:43:13] Ancient Near Eastern literature.

[00:43:15] Those scholars knew right away.

[00:43:17] Oh this.

[00:43:17] This language and symbolism is all throughout this.

[00:43:20] Ancient Near Eastern literature.

[00:43:21] It's all throughout.

[00:43:21] They get it.

[00:43:22] They get it.

[00:43:23] Yeah.

[00:43:24] And it's really.

[00:43:24] It's really interesting to find others that don't.

[00:43:27] Where it's just presupposed.

[00:43:29] Well clearly this is talking about the end of the world.

[00:43:31] Or a physical universe.

[00:43:33] Or our future.

[00:43:34] Modern commentators also have assumptions about.

[00:43:38] A problem.

[00:43:39] A so-called problem.

[00:43:40] Of the delay.

[00:43:41] Of the.

[00:43:42] Of the parousia.

[00:43:43] Of the coming of the son of man.

[00:43:45] In my book somewhere.

[00:43:47] I reference.

[00:43:48] A wonderful journal article.

[00:43:50] That N.T. Wright wrote.

[00:43:52] Trying to explain.

[00:43:53] How the.

[00:43:55] The perceived delay.

[00:43:57] Creates more historical problems.

[00:43:59] Than if there just isn't one actually.

[00:44:01] And we've actually just misunderstood that message.

[00:44:04] Because it's one thing to affirm credibly.

[00:44:07] That.

[00:44:08] We believe that Christ will come again.

[00:44:10] He's going to make all wrongs right.

[00:44:12] He's going to restore justice and order.

[00:44:16] There will be eternal life with God.

[00:44:18] In his kingdom.

[00:44:19] And there's many different interpretations.

[00:44:21] Of what that language means.

[00:44:22] But like.

[00:44:22] There's something in the end.

[00:44:23] That we all have to look forward to.

[00:44:25] As people who are loved by God.

[00:44:27] And people who love God.

[00:44:29] There's a future hope.

[00:44:31] That.

[00:44:33] Everything we experience now.

[00:44:35] Is not going to be.

[00:44:36] The eternity for humankind.

[00:44:39] Right.

[00:44:39] It sounds miserable.

[00:44:40] We have eschatological hopes.

[00:44:42] We have hopes about the last days.

[00:44:44] But.

[00:44:45] Believing in those things.

[00:44:47] Is very different than saying.

[00:44:49] That's what math.

[00:44:51] That's what Jesus was talking about.

[00:44:53] In the Olivet Discourse.

[00:44:55] How do you.

[00:44:56] Have that hard stop.

[00:44:58] Because I think you read this.

[00:44:59] And it just feels like.

[00:45:01] Really strong second coming language.

[00:45:03] And you can say.

[00:45:04] Okay.

[00:45:04] Well.

[00:45:05] This is referring.

[00:45:06] Just to the temple's destruction.

[00:45:08] This.

[00:45:09] Coming of the son of man.

[00:45:10] But then.

[00:45:11] One of the hard things.

[00:45:12] You go to other passages.

[00:45:13] You're like.

[00:45:14] Well okay.

[00:45:14] Well maybe this one's also the first temple.

[00:45:16] Sorry.

[00:45:17] The second temple's destruction.

[00:45:18] Maybe this one's about the second temple's destruction.

[00:45:20] Where's the hard stop.

[00:45:21] Where you don't end up just saying.

[00:45:23] Maybe it's all about.

[00:45:25] The first century fulfillment.

[00:45:27] And there is no.

[00:45:28] Return.

[00:45:30] I don't encourage.

[00:45:31] Yeah.

[00:45:31] I don't encourage Christians to go that route.

[00:45:34] Right.

[00:45:34] However.

[00:45:37] I should say this though.

[00:45:41] Intellectually.

[00:45:42] I'm hot.

[00:45:43] I try to be as hospitable.

[00:45:44] I think that there are.

[00:45:45] There are views that I would disagree with.

[00:45:47] That I think are fair.

[00:45:48] But I would disagree with.

[00:45:50] And I think that the church collectively has.

[00:45:52] Should have maintained a firm stance.

[00:45:55] And in future hope.

[00:45:57] However.

[00:45:57] Where would I draw the line?

[00:45:59] I guess I.

[00:45:59] I guess I draw the line.

[00:46:01] Just basically.

[00:46:02] With allowing researchers.

[00:46:03] To do authentic.

[00:46:04] Good.

[00:46:05] Healthy.

[00:46:06] Robust.

[00:46:06] Sound.

[00:46:07] Research.

[00:46:08] And letting the research speak for itself.

[00:46:10] And let the Christians.

[00:46:12] Christians don't have to battle about this.

[00:46:13] They just have to work with each other.

[00:46:15] And think about these things.

[00:46:16] And live with each other.

[00:46:17] And then.

[00:46:17] I think.

[00:46:18] Truth has a way of.

[00:46:20] Blossoming over time.

[00:46:21] As long as Christians live in community with each other.

[00:46:24] Despite disagreements.

[00:46:25] So like.

[00:46:27] My book is not.

[00:46:29] Trying to tell people how to interpret every verse of the Olivet Discourse.

[00:46:32] Discourse.

[00:46:33] My book is also.

[00:46:40] My book is.

[00:46:42] Not trying to interpret Luke's gospel.

[00:46:46] Or Mark's gospel.

[00:46:48] Or what's missing in the rest of the New Testament.

[00:46:50] My book is really just focusing on Matthew's gospel.

[00:46:54] Reading Matthew's gospel.

[00:46:56] Trying to understand how the Olivet Discourse fits within it.

[00:46:59] And then look at the whole.

[00:47:01] Look at 2,000 selective years of Christian interpretation.

[00:47:05] Of weighty.

[00:47:08] Intelligent.

[00:47:09] Considerate.

[00:47:10] Christian exegesis.

[00:47:11] Of this same discourse.

[00:47:12] And you the reader can make up your mind.

[00:47:14] How much of this does.

[00:47:16] How much of this is really unified.

[00:47:19] How much of this is really.

[00:47:20] Is the church speaking with one voice.

[00:47:22] And thinking with one mind.

[00:47:23] And they're just unanimous.

[00:47:24] They're all on board.

[00:47:25] There's this big consensus.

[00:47:27] I actually think that if someone's reading carefully.

[00:47:29] They're going to realize.

[00:47:30] Wow.

[00:47:30] No one is making sense.

[00:47:33] Of this.

[00:47:33] Of this discourse.

[00:47:35] But.

[00:47:36] If you read Matthew.

[00:47:37] You know.

[00:47:38] I hope I've contributed something.

[00:47:40] With the help of many other scholars.

[00:47:41] That I.

[00:47:41] That I cite.

[00:47:43] That.

[00:47:44] That Matthew is actually really clear.

[00:47:46] That Jesus was actually really clear.

[00:47:48] And if.

[00:47:50] And we.

[00:47:50] And.

[00:47:52] I think that we're very likely misunderstood.

[00:47:54] At least all the way up to the last judgment scene.

[00:47:56] Of Matthew 25.

[00:47:58] I think we've misunderstood.

[00:48:01] The.

[00:48:02] The literary design of Matthew's.

[00:48:05] Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse.

[00:48:07] Of G.

[00:48:07] Of the way it's.

[00:48:08] Jesus' teaching has been preserved there.

[00:48:10] I think that Jesus is talking about.

[00:48:12] First century fulfillment.

[00:48:13] And only first century fulfillment.

[00:48:14] And.

[00:48:15] I try to.

[00:48:16] Show.

[00:48:16] Why that would have been literarily.

[00:48:19] And again.

[00:48:19] I'm not.

[00:48:20] Trying to tell people.

[00:48:21] How to interpret.

[00:48:22] All the verses.

[00:48:23] Of the chapter.

[00:48:23] I'm trying to actually deal with.

[00:48:25] Larger themes and structures.

[00:48:26] Right.

[00:48:26] This is.

[00:48:27] This is something that.

[00:48:28] If one invests in the details.

[00:48:30] I'm providing.

[00:48:31] One does not need to be a systematician.

[00:48:34] One just has to love Matthew's gospel.

[00:48:36] And really think about it.

[00:48:37] As a piece of literature.

[00:48:38] And history.

[00:48:39] Well talking about the form.

[00:48:40] And the structure.

[00:48:40] I mean you've mentioned a couple times.

[00:48:42] I do.

[00:48:42] You know.

[00:48:43] I think it's a very.

[00:48:45] Strong point in your book.

[00:48:46] Is.

[00:48:47] The assumption.

[00:48:48] About.

[00:48:49] Jesus answering the questions.

[00:48:51] Essentially.

[00:48:52] First questions answered by the first section.

[00:48:55] Or through.

[00:48:56] Yeah.

[00:48:56] 15-ish.

[00:48:57] Second questions.

[00:48:58] Answered by another section.

[00:49:00] And it just goes.

[00:49:01] Boom.

[00:49:01] Boom.

[00:49:01] Boom.

[00:49:02] Boom.

[00:49:02] And you.

[00:49:03] You seem to invert it.

[00:49:05] I don't.

[00:49:06] I think that Jesus does.

[00:49:08] Right.

[00:49:09] Right.

[00:49:09] But talk a little bit more about that.

[00:49:10] What kind of.

[00:49:11] What kind of.

[00:49:12] Clued you in.

[00:49:12] To be like.

[00:49:13] In other words.

[00:49:14] Can you just.

[00:49:15] Sketch that out for us.

[00:49:16] What's the traditional order.

[00:49:17] And then.

[00:49:17] Why does that not work.

[00:49:18] And how did you.

[00:49:20] See that there's actually.

[00:49:21] A different way to look at it.

[00:49:22] Well painting in broad strokes.

[00:49:25] Somewhere between.

[00:49:26] Matthew 24.

[00:49:27] 4.

[00:49:28] In verse 36.

[00:49:29] There is a broad.

[00:49:31] Consensus.

[00:49:32] That Jesus is addressing.

[00:49:33] First century fulfillment.

[00:49:34] Somewhere within there.

[00:49:36] For some people.

[00:49:37] It happens in chunks.

[00:49:38] For some theologians.

[00:49:40] The whole section.

[00:49:41] Is a mixture.

[00:49:42] Of first century.

[00:49:43] And end of the world.

[00:49:44] Somehow.

[00:49:44] And they don't explain how.

[00:49:46] They just assert.

[00:49:47] That that's.

[00:49:47] It must be a mixture.

[00:49:49] For some people.

[00:49:51] It's.

[00:49:52] The majority.

[00:49:54] Of.

[00:49:56] Verses 4.

[00:49:56] Through 36.

[00:49:57] Except for like.

[00:49:58] Verse 27.

[00:49:59] For some reason.

[00:50:01] That one.

[00:50:02] Can't be allegedly.

[00:50:03] According to some commentators.

[00:50:08] R.T.

[00:50:09] France is.

[00:50:09] One of the people.

[00:50:10] That does that.

[00:50:11] Ken Gentry is another person.

[00:50:12] That does that.

[00:50:16] Some.

[00:50:17] Some.

[00:50:18] Church fathers.

[00:50:19] Would say.

[00:50:20] That it's in.

[00:50:20] All the way up to.

[00:50:21] A certain verse.

[00:50:22] This is only first century.

[00:50:24] All the language.

[00:50:25] About the end here.

[00:50:25] Is first century.

[00:50:26] First century.

[00:50:27] First century.

[00:50:27] But when it gets to this.

[00:50:28] Other verse.

[00:50:30] Where it mentions the same end.

[00:50:32] That's the end of the world.

[00:50:34] And then it says.

[00:50:36] You know.

[00:50:36] This generate.

[00:50:37] All these things will happen.

[00:50:38] Into this generation.

[00:50:39] Well that's.

[00:50:39] That's the generation.

[00:50:41] Of.

[00:50:42] Future Jews.

[00:50:43] Or that's the first.

[00:50:44] That's the future generation.

[00:50:46] Of descendants.

[00:50:47] Of this generation.

[00:50:48] Or the people who read this.

[00:50:50] It's the.

[00:50:50] This generation.

[00:50:51] That reads this text.

[00:50:52] There's all these different.

[00:50:53] Perspectives.

[00:50:54] That come in later on.

[00:50:55] Where fundamentally.

[00:50:56] You're mapping it out.

[00:50:57] In broad strokes.

[00:50:58] Verses 4 through 36.

[00:51:00] Is where.

[00:51:01] Jesus answers.

[00:51:03] The first question.

[00:51:04] He was asked.

[00:51:05] First.

[00:51:07] Following that.

[00:51:09] Jesus answers.

[00:51:10] The second question.

[00:51:11] Second.

[00:51:12] Which it has to deal with.

[00:51:14] The parousia.

[00:51:14] The coming of the son of man.

[00:51:15] The sign of this.

[00:51:16] Of the parousia.

[00:51:18] And.

[00:51:19] What will be the sign of the.

[00:51:21] Of the conclusion.

[00:51:22] Of the age.

[00:51:24] Unfortunately.

[00:51:25] Due to.

[00:51:25] Latin translations.

[00:51:27] Some Germanic extensions.

[00:51:28] It's.

[00:51:28] It's understood as.

[00:51:29] The end of the world.

[00:51:31] Even though that is.

[00:51:32] That concept is.

[00:51:33] Absolutely nowhere.

[00:51:34] In the Greek text.

[00:51:36] That's nowhere to be found.

[00:51:37] In.

[00:51:38] In the literature.

[00:51:39] Surrounding the New Testament.

[00:51:40] Either it's.

[00:51:41] It's describing.

[00:51:42] A conclusion of an age.

[00:51:44] And.

[00:51:46] That's the second part.

[00:51:48] Of the.

[00:51:49] Second question.

[00:51:50] So I.

[00:51:50] I describe it as like.

[00:51:51] A third question.

[00:51:52] Or a last question.

[00:51:53] So Jesus.

[00:51:54] Asked these questions.

[00:51:55] In order.

[00:51:56] And tradition.

[00:51:56] Broadly speaking.

[00:51:58] Sees Jesus.

[00:51:59] Answering the first question.

[00:52:01] First.

[00:52:01] The second question.

[00:52:03] Second.

[00:52:03] And the third question.

[00:52:05] Third.

[00:52:05] And so in chapter two.

[00:52:07] Of my book.

[00:52:07] When I'm going through.

[00:52:09] The.

[00:52:09] Larger structure.

[00:52:11] And the smaller structures.

[00:52:13] And themes.

[00:52:13] And patterns.

[00:52:15] Of Matthew's gospel.

[00:52:16] As a story.

[00:52:17] Of Jesus.

[00:52:18] As Israel.

[00:52:19] When you.

[00:52:20] Finally get to.

[00:52:21] The discourse.

[00:52:22] The fifth discourse.

[00:52:24] Of the gospel.

[00:52:25] Matthew has.

[00:52:26] Structured.

[00:52:27] The sayings of Jesus.

[00:52:28] In such a way.

[00:52:30] That the.

[00:52:31] The beginning of chapter.

[00:52:32] Twenty.

[00:52:33] Three.

[00:52:33] Which is all in the temple.

[00:52:35] And talking.

[00:52:37] Dealing with controversy.

[00:52:38] Inside the temple.

[00:52:40] That mirrors.

[00:52:41] The end of chapter.

[00:52:42] Twenty five.

[00:52:43] And the great judgment scene.

[00:52:44] And everything works.

[00:52:45] Inward.

[00:52:46] In mirroring patterns.

[00:52:47] And when you get to the center of it.

[00:52:49] The center of the structure.

[00:52:50] Of the discourse.

[00:52:51] Jesus is asked.

[00:52:52] Three questions.

[00:52:52] And then Jesus.

[00:52:54] Answer those questions.

[00:52:55] But in the.

[00:52:57] Reverse order.

[00:52:57] He was asked.

[00:52:58] So Jesus.

[00:52:59] Is asked.

[00:53:00] Question one.

[00:53:00] Followed by question two.

[00:53:01] Followed by question three.

[00:53:02] And Jesus.

[00:53:03] Begins by answering.

[00:53:05] Question three.

[00:53:05] Followed by.

[00:53:06] Answering question two.

[00:53:07] And ending with.

[00:53:08] Answering question one.

[00:53:09] So the irony of Christian tradition.

[00:53:12] Is the.

[00:53:14] Presuppositional commitment.

[00:53:16] To Jesus.

[00:53:17] Answering the first question.

[00:53:18] First.

[00:53:20] But in reality.

[00:53:21] Matthew is the only version of the gospel.

[00:53:23] Where Jesus is clearly asking.

[00:53:25] Answering the last question.

[00:53:27] First.

[00:53:27] The last question he was asked.

[00:53:29] Is the first one he begins to respond to.

[00:53:31] When will be the end of the age?

[00:53:33] Okay.

[00:53:34] So.

[00:53:34] That's why Jesus begins with the language about the end.

[00:53:36] I see.

[00:53:37] So.

[00:53:38] The way that.

[00:53:41] You're kind of laying out.

[00:53:42] Is that.

[00:53:43] Question three.

[00:53:44] When is the end of the age?

[00:53:46] And you're saying age.

[00:53:47] Should not be interpreted as.

[00:53:49] End of the world.

[00:53:50] But as it is an age.

[00:53:51] An epoch.

[00:53:52] A time of history.

[00:53:53] Right.

[00:53:53] So when is the end of this age?

[00:53:55] And then Jesus goes.

[00:53:56] I'm going to answer that last question first.

[00:53:58] And says.

[00:53:59] Many are going to come by name.

[00:54:01] There will be many astray.

[00:54:02] Wars.

[00:54:03] Rumors of wars.

[00:54:03] Nation.

[00:54:03] Nation.

[00:54:04] Right.

[00:54:04] That is the answer to.

[00:54:07] That final question.

[00:54:08] Yeah.

[00:54:09] And usually at the point of transition amongst.

[00:54:11] At least amongst modern scholars.

[00:54:12] Who insist that.

[00:54:13] Verse 36.

[00:54:14] Is the definite point of transition into the future.

[00:54:17] Where Jesus says.

[00:54:18] But of that day and hour.

[00:54:19] Nobody knows.

[00:54:20] Right.

[00:54:21] There's some interesting grammatical arguments.

[00:54:24] By Gibbs.

[00:54:24] By France.

[00:54:26] By other people.

[00:54:27] About how that's a transition.

[00:54:29] But what they're all assuming though.

[00:54:30] Is still the order of the questions being answered.

[00:54:32] From first to last.

[00:54:33] And I actually think that if a transition.

[00:54:35] I do think a transition does take place there.

[00:54:37] But not a transition into the future.

[00:54:39] It's actually a transition to the last question he was asked.

[00:54:42] I see.

[00:54:43] Or to the first question he was asked.

[00:54:45] I see.

[00:54:45] So what we've done.

[00:54:46] I think across tradition.

[00:54:48] Is because we've assumed that Jesus answers the first question first.

[00:54:53] And the last question last.

[00:54:56] We.

[00:54:58] Christian tradition tries to find.

[00:55:01] First century fulfillment.

[00:55:03] As clear as possible.

[00:55:05] In the.

[00:55:06] Somewhere between verse 4 and 36.

[00:55:09] Because you know you get to the statement about the coming of the son of man in the middle.

[00:55:12] So we know that somewhere in there.

[00:55:14] He's talking about that beginning of the second question.

[00:55:17] But since we've assumed that he's already begun by answering the first question first.

[00:55:21] When will these things happen?

[00:55:23] When will these things happen?

[00:55:26] Is the key part.

[00:55:26] The time sensitive statement.

[00:55:29] And he ends with signs of this.

[00:55:32] Of this.

[00:55:32] Of the.

[00:55:33] Of the conclusion of the age.

[00:55:35] That we're looking.

[00:55:37] We're looking for him.

[00:55:39] For the wrong question to be answered.

[00:55:40] Once we get past the parousia statement.

[00:55:43] So in verse 36.

[00:55:44] When it transitions to.

[00:55:46] But of that day and hour nobody knows.

[00:55:49] And this is all like the days of Noah.

[00:55:51] Etc.

[00:55:52] Etc.

[00:55:53] That's a when question.

[00:55:54] That's a when question.

[00:55:56] Right.

[00:55:56] That Jesus is answering.

[00:55:57] And the beginning part explicitly mentions.

[00:56:00] Between verses 4 and 36.

[00:56:02] Jesus is talking about the end.

[00:56:04] The end.

[00:56:05] The end.

[00:56:05] The end.

[00:56:05] And signs.

[00:56:06] Many signs of things.

[00:56:08] And yet that's not.

[00:56:08] So by the time you get to the transitional verse.

[00:56:11] The.

[00:56:11] Jesus is answering the when question.

[00:56:13] And he's not talking about signs then.

[00:56:15] He's actually giving a lot of time statements.

[00:56:17] About the day and the hour.

[00:56:19] Etc.

[00:56:19] Etc.

[00:56:20] Etc.

[00:56:20] And I'm.

[00:56:21] I'm mapping that out for the reader.

[00:56:24] That is by far.

[00:56:27] I've been given feedback from.

[00:56:30] Scholars and lay people who have read my book.

[00:56:33] That's getting into the weeds of it.

[00:56:35] For people that don't love studying the Bible.

[00:56:37] But I can promise.

[00:56:38] My audience.

[00:56:39] That if you're really looking at these verses carefully.

[00:56:42] As I've mapped them out.

[00:56:44] It really does match up.

[00:56:46] From a literary perspective.

[00:56:48] I'm not.

[00:56:49] I'm not.

[00:56:50] Fudging anything.

[00:56:50] I really think that the evidence is there.

[00:56:53] In Matthew's gospel.

[00:56:55] That Jesus answers the last question first.

[00:56:58] About the conclusion of the age.

[00:57:01] And he answers the first question last.

[00:57:04] About when these things will happen.

[00:57:05] And the irony is.

[00:57:07] Is that all across Christian tradition.

[00:57:09] It is.

[00:57:09] It is acceptable.

[00:57:12] That Jesus was talking about.

[00:57:15] The destruction of Jerusalem.

[00:57:17] And events leading up to it.

[00:57:18] In the.

[00:57:19] In Jesus's initial response.

[00:57:21] But think about how the tables are turned.

[00:57:23] If what Jesus is.

[00:57:24] If Jesus is not answering.

[00:57:26] The specific question.

[00:57:28] When will these things happen?

[00:57:30] But instead.

[00:57:31] In those verses.

[00:57:32] That are clearly interpreted as first century.

[00:57:34] That's where Jesus is answering the question.

[00:57:36] What will be the signs of the conclusion of the age?

[00:57:38] That.

[00:57:39] What that does intrinsically.

[00:57:41] Is that makes the entire discourse.

[00:57:44] About first century fulfillment.

[00:57:48] I'd like.

[00:57:49] I'd like to say that.

[00:57:51] I have.

[00:57:51] Contributed to Matthew and scholarship.

[00:57:53] In a way.

[00:57:54] That will.

[00:57:55] Help many Christians.

[00:57:57] In the future.

[00:57:58] Really.

[00:57:59] Help them trust Jesus.

[00:58:00] And trust the gospel.

[00:58:02] And trust apostolic authority.

[00:58:03] And also.

[00:58:04] In large measure.

[00:58:05] Trust tradition as well.

[00:58:06] Like trust.

[00:58:07] The authority.

[00:58:08] That Christ has given to the church.

[00:58:09] In the world.

[00:58:10] We make mistakes.

[00:58:12] Everybody's.

[00:58:13] Using the best of intentions.

[00:58:14] Simple mistakes do happen.

[00:58:16] And I actually think that.

[00:58:18] Even though there's merit to the.

[00:58:20] There's great merit.

[00:58:21] To believing.

[00:58:22] In creeds.

[00:58:23] And the end of the world.

[00:58:24] And promises of Christ's second coming.

[00:58:26] I affirm all those things.

[00:58:27] There's something also to be said.

[00:58:29] That.

[00:58:29] About Matthew's gospel.

[00:58:30] I think that.

[00:58:32] Matthew's gospel.

[00:58:34] Makes more sense.

[00:58:35] If we don't.

[00:58:38] Read into it.

[00:58:41] About the end of our world.

[00:58:43] I think it actually makes far more sense.

[00:58:45] As a first century.

[00:58:48] Gospel.

[00:58:49] And it.

[00:58:50] And I think that.

[00:58:52] I think that can.

[00:58:54] If understood that way.

[00:58:56] It helps a lot of other New Testament studies.

[00:58:59] Well I thought.

[00:59:01] In your book.

[00:59:02] It was really helpful.

[00:59:03] And I was kind of reading.

[00:59:03] And in some respects.

[00:59:04] I was like.

[00:59:05] Oh wow.

[00:59:05] Maybe this is how.

[00:59:06] This kind of works.

[00:59:08] You get so.

[00:59:09] Set in a.

[00:59:10] In a.

[00:59:12] A way of reading the text.

[00:59:13] And you sort of.

[00:59:14] Fit it into that.

[00:59:15] And you kind of.

[00:59:16] Kind of step back and go.

[00:59:17] What if we're actually approaching the text.

[00:59:19] Incorrectly.

[00:59:20] In a sense.

[00:59:21] Because it is true.

[00:59:22] And then I.

[00:59:22] When I kind of took.

[00:59:24] That approach.

[00:59:25] I was like.

[00:59:26] Well that does make sense.

[00:59:27] Nobody knows the time or the hour.

[00:59:29] That's answering a when question.

[00:59:30] Which is the first question.

[00:59:31] His third answer is answering the first question.

[00:59:32] And then.

[00:59:33] He's talking about signs.

[00:59:36] And.

[00:59:37] You know.

[00:59:38] Four through the end.

[00:59:39] It's all about.

[00:59:40] Signs.

[00:59:40] Signs.

[00:59:41] Signs.

[00:59:41] And we all agree on.

[00:59:42] On the coming.

[00:59:43] The son of man part.

[00:59:44] Because that's the middle part.

[00:59:44] But then you're like.

[00:59:45] This does make sense.

[00:59:47] Linguistically.

[00:59:48] Because he's just saying.

[00:59:49] Signs over and over again.

[00:59:50] And then he's talking about.

[00:59:51] Time markers.

[00:59:52] After that.

[00:59:54] Well and I.

[00:59:54] I tried to provide a variety of.

[00:59:57] Of reliable.

[01:00:00] Christian.

[01:00:01] Scholarship.

[01:00:02] Where people trust certain names.

[01:00:03] And certain people.

[01:00:04] Within certain traditions.

[01:00:05] And I tried to.

[01:00:06] Use their commentaries.

[01:00:07] Just to kind of explore the fact that.

[01:00:12] Some theologians are honest.

[01:00:14] And they say.

[01:00:15] I don't understand how.

[01:00:17] How this could be the end of the world.

[01:00:19] Because just reading it at plain value.

[01:00:20] This seems to be talking about.

[01:00:21] First century events.

[01:00:23] But it can't be talking about.

[01:00:24] First century events.

[01:00:25] Because we know it's talking about.

[01:00:26] The end of the world.

[01:00:27] And I bring up those people.

[01:00:30] In my commentary.

[01:00:32] I mean.

[01:00:32] In great detail.

[01:00:35] You know.

[01:00:36] Heinrich Bollinger.

[01:00:38] Which was one of the sections.

[01:00:40] That Matthew Colvin.

[01:00:41] Translated for me.

[01:00:43] He even goes out of his way to say.

[01:00:45] Hey look.

[01:00:45] I'm open-minded.

[01:00:46] If anyone can offer a better explanation.

[01:00:48] Of what I'm doing.

[01:00:49] Please do.

[01:00:50] I'm willing to change my mind.

[01:00:52] You know.

[01:00:53] And Juan de Valdez.

[01:00:54] Before him.

[01:00:55] A Catholic scholar.

[01:00:57] He sees first century fulfillment.

[01:01:00] He sees his like general fulfillment.

[01:01:01] Up to verse 14.

[01:01:02] He sees clear first century fulfillment.

[01:01:05] In Matthew 24.

[01:01:06] 15 to 22.

[01:01:08] He sees unmistakable.

[01:01:10] First century fulfillment.

[01:01:11] In verse 34.

[01:01:13] But then he says.

[01:01:15] I'm not satisfied with any first century fulfillment.

[01:01:18] He like wipes it away and says.

[01:01:20] I'm not satisfied with this.

[01:01:22] This to me can only be orthodox.

[01:01:24] If it's dealing with the end of the world.

[01:01:26] And that just tells you.

[01:01:28] Not about anything about Matthew.

[01:01:30] That's more or less an autobiographical remark.

[01:01:33] Where you actually can see something about.

[01:01:36] The scholar in his generation.

[01:01:39] With the.

[01:01:40] With.

[01:01:41] In the orbit of thought.

[01:01:42] Around him at his time.

[01:01:45] And I'm.

[01:01:45] I really am interested in the history of thought.

[01:01:49] I'm fascinated by it.

[01:01:51] And I.

[01:01:51] And I hope that I've.

[01:01:53] Contributed.

[01:01:55] To.

[01:01:56] What I consider to be.

[01:01:57] You know.

[01:01:59] A history of an important thought.

[01:02:01] Is.

[01:02:02] You know.

[01:02:02] How are we thinking about.

[01:02:03] The Olivet discourse.

[01:02:05] Absolutely.

[01:02:06] No.

[01:02:06] I think.

[01:02:06] This is what was so refreshing about your book.

[01:02:08] Because I was like.

[01:02:09] Man.

[01:02:09] I would read.

[01:02:10] Some different commentaries.

[01:02:12] And.

[01:02:13] You felt this hand waving.

[01:02:16] Because.

[01:02:17] You know what I mean.

[01:02:18] You know.

[01:02:18] And almost an arbitrary.

[01:02:20] And not.

[01:02:20] Not to say that they.

[01:02:22] Were not.

[01:02:22] They're not trying to do harm.

[01:02:23] Right.

[01:02:23] They're trying to help souls.

[01:02:26] Right.

[01:02:26] They care about human beings.

[01:02:28] They care about the church.

[01:02:29] Orthodox.

[01:02:30] They care about truth.

[01:02:31] Yeah.

[01:02:31] Yeah.

[01:02:31] They are.

[01:02:31] They have the absolute best of intentions.

[01:02:34] Right.

[01:02:35] They're not trying to be slippery.

[01:02:38] Or deceptive.

[01:02:39] Or conniving.

[01:02:41] But yeah.

[01:02:41] They do.

[01:02:42] Did you pick up on some subtle remarks?

[01:02:44] You're like.

[01:02:45] Really?

[01:02:45] That's your explanation?

[01:02:47] Yeah.

[01:02:47] I mean.

[01:02:48] Now.

[01:02:48] What's the response been?

[01:02:50] I know your book.

[01:02:51] Hasn't been out that long.

[01:02:52] But what's your response.

[01:02:53] This response been to your work?

[01:02:54] Because I'd imagine.

[01:02:55] There'd be some who's like.

[01:02:56] This great.

[01:02:57] Exciting.

[01:02:58] Stimulating.

[01:02:58] All that stuff.

[01:02:59] But then it's sort of like.

[01:03:00] There's that kind of.

[01:03:02] Trope of.

[01:03:03] You're the one guy in church history.

[01:03:04] That got it right.

[01:03:05] You know.

[01:03:05] And everybody else missed it.

[01:03:07] Yeah.

[01:03:08] No.

[01:03:08] And I.

[01:03:09] I try to.

[01:03:13] Highlight.

[01:03:13] Those scholars.

[01:03:15] Who I discovered.

[01:03:16] And placed in the book.

[01:03:18] As.

[01:03:20] Discovering the same things.

[01:03:21] That I'm discovering.

[01:03:25] I'm trying to think.

[01:03:25] So.

[01:03:26] So.

[01:03:26] Bill B.

[01:03:26] Porteus.

[01:03:27] Is one of them.

[01:03:28] He was the bishop of.

[01:03:29] Chester in England.

[01:03:31] For like 20.

[01:03:31] In London.

[01:03:32] For like 20 years.

[01:03:33] Thomas Newton.

[01:03:34] He's another person.

[01:03:35] That also discovered.

[01:03:36] And just says in passing commentaries.

[01:03:38] Like.

[01:03:38] Jesus is clearly answering.

[01:03:39] The last question first.

[01:03:41] And the first question last.

[01:03:43] As far as.

[01:03:43] First century fulfillment goes.

[01:03:45] There's nobody.

[01:03:46] More dynamic.

[01:03:47] In my mind.

[01:03:48] Than.

[01:03:50] John Lightfoot.

[01:03:51] One of the Westminster divines.

[01:03:55] Yeah.

[01:03:56] And.

[01:03:57] John Lightfoot.

[01:03:58] Places.

[01:03:59] All.

[01:04:00] Of Matthew 24.

[01:04:02] And 25.

[01:04:03] In first century fulfillment.

[01:04:05] And only.

[01:04:06] First century fulfillment.

[01:04:07] So this is a Westminster divine.

[01:04:09] He's one of.

[01:04:10] The.

[01:04:10] At that time.

[01:04:11] The leading oriental scholars.

[01:04:13] That's.

[01:04:14] At the Westminster assembly.

[01:04:16] And we know.

[01:04:16] He's an important figure.

[01:04:18] All the debates.

[01:04:19] And discussions.

[01:04:20] Of the Westminster assembly.

[01:04:21] Because.

[01:04:23] Ben.

[01:04:23] Ben Dixhorn.

[01:04:25] He's.

[01:04:26] Recently published.

[01:04:27] A big.

[01:04:27] Like.

[01:04:28] Thousand.

[01:04:28] Page.

[01:04:29] Of all of Lightfoot's minutes.

[01:04:30] Of the entire Westminster assembly.

[01:04:32] He's also the one that.

[01:04:33] Published the minutes.

[01:04:34] Of the Westminster assembly.

[01:04:35] Which I have.

[01:04:36] And.

[01:04:37] Lightfoot was.

[01:04:40] He was political.

[01:04:41] He was theological.

[01:04:42] But man.

[01:04:42] When it came to.

[01:04:43] Biblical exegesis.

[01:04:44] He just.

[01:04:45] Saw.

[01:04:46] No possibility.

[01:04:48] Of.

[01:04:48] The end of our world.

[01:04:50] In Matthew 24.

[01:04:50] To 25.

[01:04:51] And.

[01:04:52] Interestingly enough.

[01:04:54] When I wrote my book.

[01:04:56] And I was dealing with the section.

[01:04:58] On John Lightfoot.

[01:04:59] I was.

[01:05:00] I was dealing with his.

[01:05:01] His commentary.

[01:05:02] On the gospels.

[01:05:04] According to.

[01:05:05] Rabbinical sources.

[01:05:08] And it's.

[01:05:09] It's.

[01:05:09] It's similarities.

[01:05:10] With Talmudic sources.

[01:05:11] Etc.

[01:05:11] Etc.

[01:05:12] And.

[01:05:13] In that commentary.

[01:05:15] You know.

[01:05:16] I can only.

[01:05:16] Honestly.

[01:05:18] Explain.

[01:05:19] To my audience.

[01:05:20] What.

[01:05:21] Lightfoot comments.

[01:05:22] About.

[01:05:22] And Lightfoot.

[01:05:23] Only provides.

[01:05:24] An exegesis.

[01:05:25] Of.

[01:05:26] Chapter 24.

[01:05:27] He actually.

[01:05:27] Doesn't provide.

[01:05:28] Any commentary.

[01:05:29] On chapter 25.

[01:05:30] With first century.

[01:05:31] Fulfillment.

[01:05:32] At all.

[01:05:33] Shows some parallels.

[01:05:34] But there's nothing significant.

[01:05:36] In it at all.

[01:05:36] But he's explicit.

[01:05:37] About first century.

[01:05:38] Connections.

[01:05:38] In rabbinic.

[01:05:39] And Jewish literature.

[01:05:41] Where.

[01:05:41] Where it's clear.

[01:05:42] That.

[01:05:43] All of.

[01:05:43] Chapter 24.

[01:05:44] Is first century.

[01:05:45] Fulfillment.

[01:05:46] And only.

[01:05:46] First century.

[01:05:47] Fulfillment.

[01:05:47] And cannot mean.

[01:05:48] Anything but that.

[01:05:49] So when I wrote my book.

[01:05:50] And the chapter.

[01:05:51] On John Lightfoot.

[01:05:52] I.

[01:05:53] I point out.

[01:05:53] In passing.

[01:05:54] That.

[01:05:54] He doesn't really have anything.

[01:05:56] To contribute to chapter 25.

[01:05:57] So I don't know.

[01:05:58] If he thought.

[01:05:59] 25.

[01:06:00] Was fulfilled or not.

[01:06:01] Well.

[01:06:01] Since then.

[01:06:02] I have.

[01:06:03] Purchased a copy.

[01:06:04] Of his.

[01:06:05] Of his harmony.

[01:06:06] And chronicle.

[01:06:07] Of the new testament.

[01:06:08] Which is.

[01:06:09] Basically like a parallel.

[01:06:10] New testament.

[01:06:11] And at the.

[01:06:11] End of that.

[01:06:12] He gives a lengthy.

[01:06:13] Essay.

[01:06:14] Of like 40 pages.

[01:06:15] On the destruction.

[01:06:16] Of the Jerusalem.

[01:06:16] And its significance.

[01:06:18] And in that.

[01:06:20] He's very clear.

[01:06:21] That the Olivet Discourse.

[01:06:23] Is only first century.

[01:06:24] From beginning to end.

[01:06:25] And also.

[01:06:26] In his parallel.

[01:06:26] New testament.

[01:06:27] When you get to.

[01:06:28] Matthew 24.

[01:06:29] And 25.

[01:06:30] He says.

[01:06:31] Matthew 23.

[01:06:33] Through 25.

[01:06:35] See also.

[01:06:36] Luke 17.

[01:06:37] And Luke 21.

[01:06:38] These verses.

[01:06:39] So he picks both places.

[01:06:41] In Luke's gospel.

[01:06:41] That have parallels.

[01:06:43] With.

[01:06:44] With.

[01:06:45] First century fulfillment.

[01:06:46] And then.

[01:06:46] Mark 13.

[01:06:47] See them.

[01:06:48] And then he.

[01:06:49] Tells you.

[01:06:50] This is entire.

[01:06:51] Like in the bullprint.

[01:06:52] This is entirely.

[01:06:53] About first century events.

[01:06:54] So I wish.

[01:06:55] I could have added that.

[01:06:56] To my book.

[01:06:57] But.

[01:06:58] He was a brain.

[01:06:59] He was a brilliant.

[01:07:00] Humble.

[01:07:03] Immensely intelligent.

[01:07:04] And godly.

[01:07:06] Man.

[01:07:07] I wish.

[01:07:08] Wish that more scholars.

[01:07:09] You know.

[01:07:10] Were familiar with his views.

[01:07:12] But again.

[01:07:13] I don't know all the historical.

[01:07:15] Circumstances.

[01:07:16] Around why.

[01:07:17] You know.

[01:07:17] About.

[01:07:18] You know.

[01:07:18] How well that view was received.

[01:07:19] I do know.

[01:07:20] From looking.

[01:07:21] Recently.

[01:07:22] Through his.

[01:07:23] Minutes.

[01:07:24] And.

[01:07:24] Through the minutes of the Westminster Assembly.

[01:07:27] And through a number of different works about.

[01:07:29] The Westminster Assembly.

[01:07:30] That.

[01:07:31] There's no place in the Westminster documents.

[01:07:33] That.

[01:07:34] That.

[01:07:35] Interprets.

[01:07:36] A passage of Matthew 24.

[01:07:39] 4.

[01:07:39] Through.

[01:07:41] I think it stops at like.

[01:07:43] 26.

[01:07:44] There's no.

[01:07:45] There's no verse that is interpreted as futuristic.

[01:07:48] In any.

[01:07:49] Comments.

[01:07:49] Wow.

[01:07:50] In any of the Westminster sources.

[01:07:51] So.

[01:07:51] I.

[01:07:52] I.

[01:07:52] I suppose from my research.

[01:07:54] Because I.

[01:07:55] I have.

[01:07:56] Lightfoot.

[01:07:57] There are other people.

[01:07:58] That the Westminster annotations.

[01:07:59] Are part of my book.

[01:08:01] Yeah.

[01:08:02] John.

[01:08:03] Lee.

[01:08:04] Is another person.

[01:08:05] His commentary.

[01:08:05] And he's associated with Westminster Assembly.

[01:08:08] They.

[01:08:08] They're all interpreting.

[01:08:09] A transition taking place.

[01:08:12] At about.

[01:08:13] Verse 36.

[01:08:14] So I think that there was a consensus at the assembly.

[01:08:17] Where they.

[01:08:17] They understood very clearly that.

[01:08:19] There's some first century fulfillment.

[01:08:21] That.

[01:08:21] Can't be denied.

[01:08:23] In the earliest part of.

[01:08:25] The Olivet Discourse.

[01:08:26] And again.

[01:08:27] Just think about this.

[01:08:28] If.

[01:08:29] If that's Christian tradition.

[01:08:31] At least in the reformed world.

[01:08:33] And that's a well established fact.

[01:08:34] Where it's hard to deny.

[01:08:35] Among these divines.

[01:08:37] But they think.

[01:08:37] Jesus is answering.

[01:08:39] The first question.

[01:08:41] First.

[01:08:42] When really.

[01:08:42] He's answering the question.

[01:08:44] The last question.

[01:08:45] First.

[01:08:46] Because it was the last question.

[01:08:47] That was asked to him.

[01:08:47] That's why he answers that one first.

[01:08:50] And he ends with his.

[01:08:51] The first question.

[01:08:52] Asked to them.

[01:08:52] When will these things happen?

[01:08:54] That's just telling.

[01:08:55] It's just.

[01:08:55] It's just telling.

[01:08:57] It.

[01:08:58] Everything really changes.

[01:08:59] I think we can be more.

[01:09:01] Intellectually hospitable.

[01:09:02] If we realize like.

[01:09:03] Oh wow.

[01:09:05] This discourse is far more simple.

[01:09:07] Than what we.

[01:09:07] We like.

[01:09:08] We've actually complicated this more.

[01:09:10] Right.

[01:09:10] Than it needs to be.

[01:09:11] Well that.

[01:09:12] That really.

[01:09:13] Was kind of what opened up.

[01:09:14] For me.

[01:09:15] It wasn't the.

[01:09:16] When I opened it up.

[01:09:18] Your book.

[01:09:18] I was like.

[01:09:19] Okay.

[01:09:19] This is going to be.

[01:09:20] A robust defense of post-millennialism.

[01:09:22] Or something like that.

[01:09:23] Yeah.

[01:09:23] And.

[01:09:24] Yeah.

[01:09:24] I'm not post-millennial.

[01:09:26] If it helps anybody.

[01:09:27] But.

[01:09:27] I'm not against it.

[01:09:28] But I'm not personally post-millennial.

[01:09:30] Well what's interesting.

[01:09:30] That's what you're expecting.

[01:09:31] That's interesting.

[01:09:32] Well yeah.

[01:09:33] Well I mean.

[01:09:33] It's like.

[01:09:34] Theopolis recommends it.

[01:09:35] And you know.

[01:09:36] Yeah.

[01:09:37] Yeah.

[01:09:37] Yeah.

[01:09:37] Yeah.

[01:09:37] And I'm a theopolitan.

[01:09:38] I.

[01:09:39] I'm different than.

[01:09:40] Every other theopolitan.

[01:09:42] There.

[01:09:42] I mean.

[01:09:43] I'm known for being my own way.

[01:09:44] Yeah.

[01:09:46] But I've grown tremendously.

[01:09:47] Through the research there.

[01:09:48] But yeah.

[01:09:48] I.

[01:09:49] I respect post-millennialism.

[01:09:51] While having my own personal.

[01:09:54] Questions.

[01:09:55] About.

[01:09:55] Sure.

[01:09:55] Certain things.

[01:09:56] But yeah.

[01:09:57] You were.

[01:09:57] You assume that about me.

[01:09:58] And I find that interesting.

[01:09:59] Yeah.

[01:09:59] Well I saw that.

[01:10:00] And you've got a big beard.

[01:10:01] I mean.

[01:10:02] It's just like.

[01:10:03] It was all there.

[01:10:05] Yeah.

[01:10:05] But no.

[01:10:06] And I read through it.

[01:10:07] And what I've actually found really refreshing about the book.

[01:10:10] Is that.

[01:10:11] You were actually just going.

[01:10:12] I'm reading a bunch of.

[01:10:13] The insights of.

[01:10:14] Of.

[01:10:15] You know.

[01:10:16] The church fathers.

[01:10:17] And people have gone before.

[01:10:18] And you're just like.

[01:10:20] Just putting forward saying.

[01:10:21] Let's just look at the structure.

[01:10:23] Let's look at how Matthew works together.

[01:10:25] Let's see.

[01:10:26] If.

[01:10:26] The language.

[01:10:27] Links up.

[01:10:28] And just start there.

[01:10:29] Let's just rearrange the table a little bit.

[01:10:31] And maybe this can further.

[01:10:33] The discourse.

[01:10:33] Without actually going through.

[01:10:35] Because I mean.

[01:10:35] I think every.

[01:10:37] Perspective of it.

[01:10:37] You're going to run.

[01:10:38] It's.

[01:10:39] You're going to run into hard.

[01:10:40] Things.

[01:10:40] But I thought.

[01:10:41] It's really controversial.

[01:10:42] Yeah.

[01:10:43] It's a.

[01:10:43] It's.

[01:10:43] It's kind of wild.

[01:10:45] How.

[01:10:46] It agitates us.

[01:10:49] I tried to write the book.

[01:10:52] Charitably.

[01:10:53] From the perspective.

[01:10:54] Of my old self.

[01:10:55] Who I remember.

[01:10:56] 30 years ago.

[01:10:57] Would have.

[01:10:58] I would have been on fire.

[01:11:00] For.

[01:11:00] For.

[01:11:01] The truth.

[01:11:02] And I would have wanted to stamp out.

[01:11:04] Heresy.

[01:11:05] So I know what it's like.

[01:11:06] To be agitated.

[01:11:08] By.

[01:11:08] Views.

[01:11:09] That.

[01:11:09] That.

[01:11:11] Appear to force one.

[01:11:12] To reevaluate everything.

[01:11:14] I'm actually not asking people.

[01:11:16] To reevaluate everything.

[01:11:17] I'm actually just asking them.

[01:11:18] To reevaluate.

[01:11:19] The Olivet Discourse.

[01:11:20] And I don't think that's too much.

[01:11:22] To ask.

[01:11:22] Yeah.

[01:11:23] No.

[01:11:23] No.

[01:11:24] Well.

[01:11:25] Yeah.

[01:11:25] Because I don't.

[01:11:25] Yeah.

[01:11:26] Go ahead.

[01:11:27] It.

[01:11:27] The Olivet Discourse.

[01:11:29] Is essential.

[01:11:30] For.

[01:11:31] All of Christian eschatology.

[01:11:33] I would argue that.

[01:11:35] The final judgment scene.

[01:11:36] Is actually the most essential.

[01:11:38] And that is.

[01:11:39] Part.

[01:11:40] Part of my.

[01:11:41] Research.

[01:11:42] Leads me to conclude.

[01:11:43] That that could be.

[01:11:46] That could be understood.

[01:11:47] As first century fulfillment.

[01:11:49] Ongoing fulfillment.

[01:11:50] In time.

[01:11:51] Or in timelessness.

[01:11:52] Theoretically.

[01:11:53] From a Thomas perspective.

[01:11:54] It could also be.

[01:11:55] End of the world.

[01:11:56] It could be all of the above.

[01:11:57] And I leave that.

[01:11:58] To future scholars.

[01:11:59] To do research on it.

[01:12:01] Et cetera.

[01:12:02] But.

[01:12:02] But I.

[01:12:03] Man.

[01:12:04] I just.

[01:12:04] I do feel very.

[01:12:06] Strongly.

[01:12:06] That the Christians.

[01:12:07] Don't have to get so uptight.

[01:12:08] About the Olivet Discourse.

[01:12:09] Despite how essential.

[01:12:10] It appears to be.

[01:12:11] Because I think.

[01:12:12] That if we were to.

[01:12:14] Humbly explore.

[01:12:16] The.

[01:12:16] The discourse.

[01:12:18] As.

[01:12:19] As a.

[01:12:20] Historically.

[01:12:20] Fulfilled.

[01:12:21] Discourse.

[01:12:23] Greater good.

[01:12:24] Comes from that.

[01:12:25] Greater.

[01:12:26] Greater.

[01:12:26] Insights.

[01:12:27] And wisdom.

[01:12:28] Blossom.

[01:12:29] From.

[01:12:30] Trusting Jesus.

[01:12:31] That way.

[01:12:32] Well I think that a lot of it.

[01:12:33] And maybe you even felt this writing it.

[01:12:35] Where you could imagine there's a pressure.

[01:12:36] You think about.

[01:12:38] I don't know.

[01:12:39] Jerome.

[01:12:39] Or you.

[01:12:39] You know.

[01:12:40] Calvin writing.

[01:12:41] And they're sitting there.

[01:12:42] And they're just like.

[01:12:42] I don't want people to think.

[01:12:44] I'm denying the second coming.

[01:12:46] Right.

[01:12:46] Yeah.

[01:12:46] There's that pressure.

[01:12:47] I think there's also a pastoral pressure.

[01:12:49] If you don't want people to grow lax.

[01:12:51] That oh.

[01:12:51] This is first century fulfillment.

[01:12:53] Persecution stuff.

[01:12:54] Doesn't really.

[01:12:55] That was all done.

[01:12:56] That tribulation time is done.

[01:12:58] Now it's all gravy.

[01:12:59] And all that stuff.

[01:13:00] How would you.

[01:13:01] Yeah.

[01:13:02] Respond to maybe that second.

[01:13:04] Concern.

[01:13:04] That this.

[01:13:05] That if you.

[01:13:06] Of urgency.

[01:13:06] Take it away from the future.

[01:13:08] Well if you take.

[01:13:09] The.

[01:13:09] You remove.

[01:13:10] You remove the.

[01:13:11] The importance of urgency.

[01:13:13] And urgency.

[01:13:14] And the sense of like things.

[01:13:16] Like persecution.

[01:13:17] Enduring persecution.

[01:13:18] Being faithful to the gospel.

[01:13:19] All these kinds of things.

[01:13:20] If that's.

[01:13:21] Let's just talk about something that happened back then.

[01:13:27] Well I know that there's a place within.

[01:13:29] At least within.

[01:13:30] Reformed systematics.

[01:13:31] There's.

[01:13:32] There's.

[01:13:32] There's a place for.

[01:13:34] Maintaining.

[01:13:36] An.

[01:13:37] An.

[01:13:37] An urgency.

[01:13:38] Around the imminence of Christ's return.

[01:13:40] That we are.

[01:13:41] Not to be.

[01:13:43] Lax.

[01:13:44] But we are to be.

[01:13:45] More.

[01:13:45] Zealous.

[01:13:46] And more fervent.

[01:13:47] And more vigilant.

[01:13:48] And our call to holiness.

[01:13:49] Is to be taken.

[01:13:50] More seriously.

[01:13:51] Because.

[01:13:52] We do not know the day.

[01:13:53] Or the hour.

[01:13:53] That Christ will return.

[01:13:59] I think that the value of that.

[01:14:01] Is essential for Christian.

[01:14:03] Piety.

[01:14:04] I don't think it's essential.

[01:14:06] To proof text.

[01:14:08] That though.

[01:14:08] In fact.

[01:14:09] I would think that you could get that.

[01:14:11] That.

[01:14:12] That sense of urgency.

[01:14:13] Simply by meditating on our mortality.

[01:14:16] I.

[01:14:16] Like for example.

[01:14:17] I'm having certain convictions about first century fulfillment.

[01:14:21] I have.

[01:14:23] I have shifted the emphasis that maybe once upon a time was in my mind.

[01:14:28] focusing upon Jesus returning to end the world as I know it.

[01:14:33] And I've shifted that to.

[01:14:35] I am mortal.

[01:14:37] I image God.

[01:14:39] I'll be.

[01:14:40] I will face him.

[01:14:41] He will be my judge.

[01:14:43] And hopefully he'll be my friend.

[01:14:45] Yeah.

[01:14:46] You know.

[01:14:46] I love the Lord.

[01:14:48] And I think about the end of my life now.

[01:14:51] As being.

[01:14:52] Far more important.

[01:14:54] To maintain that emphasis of.

[01:14:57] Holiness.

[01:14:58] Of piety.

[01:14:59] Of sobriety.

[01:15:00] Of.

[01:15:01] Of.

[01:15:02] Vigilance.

[01:15:03] I don't.

[01:15:04] I don't.

[01:15:05] I don't really see it being.

[01:15:07] I don't really tie a second coming urgency as.

[01:15:11] As to.

[01:15:12] For shaping that view of mine.

[01:15:14] I recognize that it's in traditions.

[01:15:16] I.

[01:15:17] I somewhat suspect that the tradition.

[01:15:20] Kind of like.

[01:15:21] Runs.

[01:15:22] It's.

[01:15:22] That kind of tradition about Jesus coming any minute now.

[01:15:25] Therefore.

[01:15:26] You know.

[01:15:26] Get your lamps ready.

[01:15:31] That.

[01:15:31] That can be misplaced.

[01:15:33] It can be just as abused as.

[01:15:35] Not caring at all.

[01:15:37] Well you did mention.

[01:15:39] No one knows the time or the hour.

[01:15:41] And you apply.

[01:15:41] I don't know.

[01:15:41] I'm not trying to gotcha.

[01:15:42] I'm just wondering if.

[01:15:44] Because you apply that to the second coming.

[01:15:46] But in your layout.

[01:15:47] That's the answer to when the temple is destroyed.

[01:15:49] No one knows the hour.

[01:15:51] Right.

[01:15:51] So.

[01:15:52] I don't take that reference of Jesus.

[01:15:54] That single reference of Jesus.

[01:15:56] As.

[01:15:57] His second coming.

[01:15:58] Right.

[01:15:58] No one knows the time or the hour.

[01:16:00] Yeah.

[01:16:00] That's not referring to his second coming.

[01:16:02] Yeah.

[01:16:02] I do not believe that's what Jesus referred to.

[01:16:04] As Matthew describes it in the Alphabet discourse.

[01:16:07] Right.

[01:16:07] But.

[01:16:08] You were mentioning.

[01:16:09] But can that still.

[01:16:11] Can that ethic.

[01:16:12] In other words.

[01:16:12] Is there sort of like.

[01:16:13] Yeah.

[01:16:13] Okay.

[01:16:16] Throughout history.

[01:16:17] Because.

[01:16:17] There will be an ultimate.

[01:16:19] Temple destruction.

[01:16:20] That comes from Ratzinger.

[01:16:21] And I bring that out of my book.

[01:16:22] So if you.

[01:16:23] If you skip forward to the chapter.

[01:16:25] Get to the little section.

[01:16:26] Where I deal with.

[01:16:29] Ratzinger.

[01:16:30] And his.

[01:16:30] His commentary.

[01:16:32] Of.

[01:16:32] The Alphabet discourse.

[01:16:34] He.

[01:16:34] He describes.

[01:16:35] A kind of echo effect.

[01:16:37] Throughout history.

[01:16:41] How does that work?

[01:16:42] I don't want to be overly dogmatic.

[01:16:43] Because.

[01:16:44] I'm aware of there.

[01:16:45] Many.

[01:16:45] Being many ways of interpreting.

[01:16:47] The application.

[01:16:48] Of.

[01:16:49] Trying to live holy.

[01:16:51] Yeah.

[01:16:52] In light of.

[01:16:53] The end of the world.

[01:16:55] Christ's coming.

[01:16:56] I mean.

[01:16:57] Fundamentally.

[01:16:57] If we think about.

[01:16:58] Christ's second coming.

[01:16:59] To putting aside.

[01:17:00] All the details.

[01:17:01] Whether or not.

[01:17:02] Jesus returns from the sky.

[01:17:03] On a white horse.

[01:17:04] Yeah.

[01:17:12] Christians would be amazed.

[01:17:12] At how.

[01:17:14] How much disagreement.

[01:17:15] There is.

[01:17:16] In those views.

[01:17:17] Across history.

[01:17:18] But setting all those.

[01:17:19] Details of exegesis aside.

[01:17:21] I think it's perfectly fine.

[01:17:23] To.

[01:17:24] To.

[01:17:24] To imagine.

[01:17:25] Jesus talking about.

[01:17:27] The end of.

[01:17:28] My life.

[01:17:29] The end of.

[01:17:30] Our.

[01:17:31] World.

[01:17:32] The end of social order.

[01:17:33] As we know it.

[01:17:35] And attribute a verse.

[01:17:36] That's dealing with.

[01:17:37] First century fulfillment.

[01:17:38] To that.

[01:17:39] Mostly because.

[01:17:40] We do believe in the God.

[01:17:41] Who governs history.

[01:17:43] Sure.

[01:17:43] And has appointed all the ages.

[01:17:45] I don't think that God.

[01:17:47] Did what he did.

[01:17:49] Throughout history.

[01:17:51] Up until the Christ event.

[01:17:52] Just to abandon us.

[01:17:54] To personal whims.

[01:17:55] And fancies.

[01:17:56] And just.

[01:17:57] Maybe God's.

[01:17:58] You know.

[01:17:58] Not behaving anything like he did.

[01:18:00] In the past.

[01:18:01] I think.

[01:18:01] I think that God.

[01:18:03] Sets historical patterns.

[01:18:05] And he is reliable.

[01:18:06] According to the patterns.

[01:18:07] In which he's revealed himself to act.

[01:18:09] I don't think that it's.

[01:18:11] I don't think it's necessarily.

[01:18:13] Prophesied in Matthew 24.

[01:18:14] Though.

[01:18:14] That's my point.

[01:18:15] That's my hill to die.

[01:18:16] It's like.

[01:18:17] I don't think that Jesus was referring to me.

[01:18:19] And my situation.

[01:18:21] In Matthew 24.

[01:18:22] But to the degree.

[01:18:24] That I imagine.

[01:18:24] That something in my world.

[01:18:25] Is going to end today.

[01:18:26] Or this generation.

[01:18:27] My generation.

[01:18:28] Because certain.

[01:18:30] Commonalities and signs.

[01:18:31] I think it's more than fair.

[01:18:33] Psychologically.

[01:18:33] To say.

[01:18:34] Hey.

[01:18:34] I don't know.

[01:18:35] What's going to happen.

[01:18:36] I need to be.

[01:18:36] All the more prepared.

[01:18:37] In case it does.

[01:18:39] Does that help?

[01:18:40] It's like.

[01:18:41] I'm not trying to proof text it.

[01:18:42] I'm actually.

[01:18:42] No.

[01:18:42] Trying to.

[01:18:44] Trying to think about the way.

[01:18:45] That God acts in history.

[01:18:46] I think that the problem.

[01:18:47] Actually results.

[01:18:48] When Christians.

[01:18:50] Insist.

[01:18:50] That it must be prophesying.

[01:18:52] And by doing that.

[01:18:53] The problem that is generated.

[01:18:55] Is actually.

[01:18:56] By defining something.

[01:18:57] A little bit too much.

[01:18:58] You're insisting.

[01:18:59] That that verse.

[01:18:59] Must be referring to something.

[01:19:01] Specifically.

[01:19:01] Not the past.

[01:19:03] And must be.

[01:19:04] Specifically.

[01:19:04] In.

[01:19:05] Our future.

[01:19:05] I think that.

[01:19:06] Overly defining some things.

[01:19:08] Actually creates more problems.

[01:19:09] Than solutions.

[01:19:10] And that would definitely.

[01:19:11] Be one of them.

[01:19:12] That was helpful.

[01:19:13] Now I think that that's.

[01:19:14] And that was something that.

[01:19:15] Kind of struck me.

[01:19:16] Where I'm like.

[01:19:17] Well.

[01:19:17] You don't.

[01:19:18] It can still have an application.

[01:19:20] I know that's kind of an over.

[01:19:22] Use.

[01:19:22] I totally get it.

[01:19:23] You know.

[01:19:23] But there's like.

[01:19:24] That.

[01:19:26] It's almost.

[01:19:27] Kind of.

[01:19:27] The living.

[01:19:28] Nature of scripture.

[01:19:29] That I can still speak today.

[01:19:30] To be like.

[01:19:31] Even though it's not talking about.

[01:19:32] Future events.

[01:19:32] That they're going to happen.

[01:19:33] In our future.

[01:19:35] You know.

[01:19:36] In detail.

[01:19:37] Yeah.

[01:19:37] Yeah.

[01:19:37] In detail.

[01:19:38] Right.

[01:19:38] But.

[01:19:38] But the ethic of like.

[01:19:39] They knew.

[01:19:40] That.

[01:19:41] This mass.

[01:19:43] You know.

[01:19:43] Cataclysmic event.

[01:19:44] Was going to happen.

[01:19:45] And they had to be ready.

[01:19:46] And even though.

[01:19:47] It's not talking about.

[01:19:48] Our mass.

[01:19:49] Cataclysmic events.

[01:19:50] That happen in our future.

[01:19:50] Or whatever.

[01:19:52] We still have to be ready.

[01:19:53] Right.

[01:19:53] There still has to be that.

[01:19:54] There also has to be a clear point.

[01:19:56] Of departure.

[01:19:57] That's reasonable.

[01:19:58] Sure.

[01:19:59] I don't think that it's reasonable.

[01:20:01] At some points.

[01:20:01] To take statements of Jesus.

[01:20:03] Within the Olivet Discourse.

[01:20:04] And say that.

[01:20:05] That's entirely with the future.

[01:20:06] Jesus says.

[01:20:07] Pray that your departure.

[01:20:08] From the city of Jerusalem.

[01:20:11] Is.

[01:20:12] Doesn't happen on a Sabbath.

[01:20:14] Yeah.

[01:20:14] What do you do?

[01:20:14] You got to do something with that.

[01:20:15] Right.

[01:20:15] Yeah.

[01:20:15] Or what about this?

[01:20:17] What about the very strict detail.

[01:20:19] Where Jesus says.

[01:20:20] You hear of all these.

[01:20:22] False.

[01:20:22] Christ.

[01:20:24] These pseudo messiahs.

[01:20:26] You'll hear them out in the wilderness.

[01:20:28] Wilderness.

[01:20:28] And I just think like.

[01:20:30] Why.

[01:20:30] Why would anybody believe anybody in a wilderness today that's doing that?

[01:20:35] Right.

[01:20:36] In the year 2024.

[01:20:37] That doesn't make any sense to me.

[01:20:38] I just think that.

[01:20:41] Awareness of first century history is far more important than trying to map out future that we are not in control of anyways.

[01:20:51] I mean we are in control to some degree as secondary agents of God's divine providence.

[01:20:56] But so I don't want to dismiss our responsibility to pave the way of the future.

[01:21:01] But still it's like God is sovereign.

[01:21:04] God knows God is wiser than us.

[01:21:06] And I think there's wisdom to be learned in what has been revealed as fulfilled in the past.

[01:21:12] And that's it's actually wiser to become more attuned with that than modern speculations about a future that has not yet occurred.

[01:21:20] I mean a lot of hysteria goes away if you just if one if a Christian familiarizes oneself with first century history.

[01:21:27] That's not to say that that inappropriate quirky silly views new ones don't arise by this new venture.

[01:21:36] By no means would I be promoting any of those.

[01:21:38] But I can't even imagine what they would be because you know I can't read people's minds and they can't read mine.

[01:21:43] I can imagine lots of problems coming out of this.

[01:21:46] But I still nevertheless believe that what I've traced out in my book is a persistent problem of not reading Matthew and trusting what Jesus is saying as any first century audience would have understood it.

[01:22:02] And I think that actually lends credibility to Matthew's gospel as a deposit of apostolic witness.

[01:22:09] By the way that's another thing that we have not discussed yet that I think is important for my audience to know that I don't write the book as though Matthew was an apostle.

[01:22:22] Matthew was somebody allegedly written you know 100 200 years later.

[01:22:28] My argument actually infects all of those views.

[01:22:33] My argument does not depend upon what someone imagines about Matthew and when he wrote it whether he was an apostle or not.

[01:22:43] I think that my argument stands and it challenges all views of the authorship of Matthew's gospel because we're dealing with a persistent problem across church history with many different views in that were many different views about Matthew's authorship are already assumed.

[01:23:01] So I think that's another important contribution.

[01:23:03] So I think that's another important contribution in my book.

[01:23:04] I'm not trying to pin Matthew down into any specific kind of tribalistic understanding.

[01:23:12] I'm trying to help Christians read Matthew's gospel as a whole.

[01:23:15] And then by the time you get to the discourse it actually becomes self-evident what it's talking about.

[01:23:21] If that helps.

[01:23:23] Gotcha.

[01:23:24] Well I feel like I get asked like nine thousand more questions but people have to pick up the book for some of your more detailed analysis.

[01:23:34] But John thank you for joining us on the podcast.

[01:23:36] Thanks for your labor in this area.

[01:23:38] I mean it really is a rigorous work I think of scholarship and I think it's going to help set the stage for a lot of great future discussions.

[01:23:44] So appreciate the work and I'm grateful that you made the time to come on to the show.

[01:23:48] Again thanks for having me.

[01:23:50] I really appreciated the invite and I really enjoyed this conversation.

[01:23:53] So if you ever wanted to have a part two with more details or maybe future books that you might enjoy of mine.

[01:24:00] Please send out the invite again I'd be happy to come back on.

[01:24:03] Absolutely.

[01:24:05] Thanks for listening to this episode.

[01:24:07] If you liked it please support the show and consider becoming a Patreon supporter.

[01:24:11] You can find all the links to our YouTube channel and our Instagram account in the show notes.

[01:24:16] Thank you guys for joining us.