The Sin of Insensitivity (Respectable Sins Series)

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: In this episode we're going to be talking about the respectable sin of insensitivity, which sounds kind of odd, but a lot of times in the church we talk about avoiding overindulgence in pleasure, which is good.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And probably what most of us need to hear. But what happens when we underindulge, when we refuse to enjoy the gifts of God the way He intended?

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're not just talking about bare emotions, but rather a joyful disposition that Christians should have. Christianity in short is not for curmudgins. Enjoy this episode.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening today. We're going to continue our conversation that we started in the last episode doing our series on invisible vices or respectable sins.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: By the time this is released maybe we'll have an actual series title, but whatever is respectable sins. The most clickbaity.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So we've been having some conversations about vices or sins that commonly aren't recognized or maybe even are mistaken as virtue.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So an example would be somebody who seems humble, but really they're cowardly. So it looks like they're being Christ-like. They're washing feet, whatever. I don't know. Whatever kind of trope you want to throw in there.

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And in reality they're just cowardly. They're actually self-focused. They have intense fear of man and all that kind of stuff.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: We also talked about the vice of curiosity, which is a fun one. We often think about being curious as a great thing.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_02]: We want all kids to be curious about everything and that's not necessarily good. In fact, in our technology age it might actually be really bad.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the results are bearing that out. So again, that's the tenor of our discussion.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And today we're going to talk a little bit about insensibility.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Very interesting.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It's when you have tons of incense in your blood.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly. You have like a transfusion of...

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like we're losing him. Give me this thing. Go to any Orthodox church and give me some incense.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Dang. Shots fired.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Send it into him.

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_01]: This is why we should all stay non-denome to avoid our insensibility.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well, regardless of whatever you were just talking about, I think it's helpful to review what we were talking about regarding how we think about vice and virtue.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So one thing you would talk about is take courage for example. Courage is the virtue and to either side of it you have extremes.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: You have cowardness, cowardliness being a coward and rashness.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And you obviously want to be in the middle.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: If your predisposition is toward cowardice, you actually want to over-correct and be what you consider to be rash because your natural inclinations will pull you back from actually being rash.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll think you're overshooting and you'll actually right up...

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_02]: You'll end up right at the middle.

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Closer to that virtue.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And the opposite would be the same.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But here's another wrinkle.

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually better. If you're going to choose between the two vices, the vice of rashness is closer to courage than the vice of cowardice.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you're going to pick between the two, which you don't want to do, you want to actually aim for virtue.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you had to pick, you'd actually pick rashness.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So here we have another vice. We have insensitivity. What is the virtue in the middle and then what are we looking at on the other end?

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the object that we're looking to regulate or enjoy is pleasure.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So the virtues and the vices that we're talking about are ones that relate to pleasure.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And you can use pleasure well. You can use pleasure poorly.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And so when you use pleasure poorly, we think of that as its vicious behavior.

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And the most obvious way that we think about a misuse of pleasure is the person who's a hedonist and who's just pursuing pleasure, pursuing things that feel good and trying to live out their heart's content.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's like the obvious, the addicted person, the person who's just given over to the lust of the flesh or the lust of the eyes.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But what's I mean in keeping with our theme here of the less recognized or the more subtle vices, that is that's the excess vice.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But the vice on the deficiency side is someone who doesn't ever care about pleasure or thinks that the virtuous life is one that is totally abstinent and never uses pleasure.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is what the tradition calls the insensible person or the person who doesn't care about pursuing pleasure at all.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't care about pleasure at all.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So the centers around the idea of pleasure. I remember in conversations we've had, you've mentioned how you should never do things just for pleasure.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But so isn't that what the insensitive person does?

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: The insensitive person is they think pleasure is bad. And that's a bad attitude to have because God created pleasures to be a part of certain good experiences.

[00:05:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But not an end in and of itself.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Not an end in and of itself.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the error of being overindulgent.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Overindulgent.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can think pleasure is the end all be all. It's the most important thing.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the vice of overindulgence or licentiousness if we want to use the term.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other side you have insensibility, the person who thinks pleasure is actually bad and will go out of their way to avoid pleasure because they think it's evil.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And both of those are extremes.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Now we can like we talked about with cowardice, we can say but not not both of them are equally bad.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The person who's overindulgent is obviously more, that's a more detrimental lifestyle than the person who's totally abstinent.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Like C.S. Lewis says if you are prone to alcoholism, it's better for you to be a T-totalist just abstain completely.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a better lifestyle than the life where you are overindulging alcohol.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So of the two, it's better to be insensible than intemperate and like overindulgent.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But both are bad.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it is bad to think that pleasure is evil and to go out of your way to avoid it.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: To not see it as something good to be used in moderation the way God designed it.

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Why is it spoken of as insensitivity?

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone who's basically your appetite is kind of hardened or are not sensitive to the good things in the world.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So God designed food to be appealing to us, God designed sex to be appealing to us, God designed the colors of nature to draw us in and move us.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're dulled to that.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You're dulled.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Your taste buds are dulled to that.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You're insensitive or you're not sensible in terms of like your sensing powers are kind of destroyed or warped.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're not moved by the things that you should be moved by.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So the person who think of like the total aesthetic, the person who wants to remove all pleasure from their life because they think pleasure is bad.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And there were early sex of Christianity that thought this that they thought pleasure is evil.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Sexual pleasure is evil.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Gustatory pleasure is evil.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Eating delicious foods is bad.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, my tie this in with like narcissism or like weird views about the body.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But basically it's a view that ties sanctification to the absence of pleasure.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And Christianity has a much fuller picture of what it is to be a human being.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Even Jesus himself, he was eating fish and he went to weddings and he was drinking wine and all things in moderation.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: He was using these goods the way that they're intended.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But the person who thinks they're evil, there's a kind of deficiency there.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So they're sort of a killjoy.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They are. Yeah. They're exactly a killjoy.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to stick up their butt however you want to describe it.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. You can...

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what the church fathers call the stick up the butt.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: The vice of the stick up the butt.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I wonder who came up with that phrase too.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean...

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Did that happen to somebody?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And they're like, oh, this describes another experience I've never...

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Whenever somebody hates... hates colors.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I can totally...

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Like every picture, like someone who looks like they're like totally rigid.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they've got a stick up their butt.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's what I picture.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess it works.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. When you think about somebody being really rigid because how do you...

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: How do you differentiate between discipline and being rigid?

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean this is where it's...

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of it comes down to wisdom.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of it comes down to if...

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of it is wisdom.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Part of it is like the motives for which you're acting.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: If you believe that pleasure is all evil, then you're going to miss out on certain goods of life.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Like God didn't design us to be utilitarian about our food.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: To just like sit down and eat as quickly as possible so we can get back to work.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Now there's something about enjoying and sharing a meal with people and fellowship can be fostered over that.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you think, for example, that sexual pleasure is bad and so you abstain from engaging in sex with your spouse.

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And so they miss out on social good.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: You miss out on a social good because you're not...

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You think that there's something tainted about that experience.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not the way God designed us to be.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So either you see the pleasure as evil or you're just so calloused that you don't even see it as a good thing.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You're not moved by it.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_01]: That's bad.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not the worst way you can live your life.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's still something less than ideal about it.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Overindulgence would be you eat food just for the pleasure and more than just sustenance.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: What would be the middle?

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: What would be the actual virtue?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Temperance.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Temperance would mean you eat enough.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You eat what you need but you also don't despise the fact that what you're eating tastes good.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And the insensitive person would be somebody who perhaps only eats what they need or maybe less than what they need.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And they would numb their taste buds.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You would find that very odd if they numb their taste buds from food that they needed to eat.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Aquinas literally says,

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: If anyone rejects pleasure to the extent of omitting things that are necessary for his nature's preservation,

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_01]: he would sin because he's acting counter to the order of nature.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is the vice.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So actually there's a kind of pleasure that's necessary for a good human life.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Pleasure where you enjoy the good things that God created.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't try to strip them of the good feelings.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That would be kind of, it's going against God's nature.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: God designed them to appeal to us in a certain way.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And when we use them in accordance with his good design,

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: they are meant to be pleasurable for us.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And God did give us certain appetites that when wielded temporarily, moderately,

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: towards the right ends for the right reasons,

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: not in a way that's extorting other people,

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: not in a way that's overindulgent or overusing.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's good.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Those are all good things.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So, and this is interesting.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Aquinas says that intemperance is worse than cowardice

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: because intemperance is more under the control of your will.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Cowardice is one of those things where sometimes what you're afraid of,

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: you can't control.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But intemperance is about, well,

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: you decide by your will to pursue pleasure.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's a failure of something that's in your control.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why a lot of the church fathers,

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: they really, pleasure is one of those things that it's really easy to get wrong.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you get why they would calibrate the warnings to

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_01]: don't ever have sex, don't ever eat delicious food, don't ever drink.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Go live in the desert on the top of a pillar, right?

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a purge yourself.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So those kinds of things can be useful in the interim.

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They could be useful as a corrective,

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're never going to be the ideal.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That should never be the endpoint because when we look at the life of Christ,

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: his life was not an ascetic life

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was the most full human being who ever lived.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So which one is closer to virtue?

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Insensibility.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Because think about temperance.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Temperance is using something that's potentially dangerous like pleasure,

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's using it in moderation.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's really difficult to do.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But it looks more, if you look at two people's lives,

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the T totalist and the overindulgent alcoholic,

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: which of those, who would have to work harder to become virtuous?

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the alcoholic overindulged.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it takes a lot of effort to curb that desire for pleasure.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas the person who's abstinent just has to like work a little bit

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: to be able to enjoy the thinking question.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's think about an analogy to worship today.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So oftentimes there's a critique about evangelical services

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: where it's just emotion space.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: People go to church, they want to get an emotional high and emotional buzz

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and so that's what the worship songs are for.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_02]: The sermon is just meant to be some kind of rhetorical flourish at the end

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: where people have this cathartic moment and feel the feels or whatever.

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the reaction to that is it's not about your feelings.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's probably a lot of, maybe in our time,

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that's what needs to be said.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But what would it look like for there to be insensitivity?

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: If we know what overindulgence looks like...

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I have some examples.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Well if we know what overindulgence looks like when it comes to worship

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and liturgy and all these types of things,

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: what does insensitivity look like?

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, and without going super specific...

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Start raising your hands on worship, Paul.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: The other extreme would be thinking that any form of beauty

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: or appealing to the senses is dangerous.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are certain traditions that think about this.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Name them right now.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Mouth it.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We've all got our paradigm example in mind.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Paul just mouthed it.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I was so close to actually naming a denomination.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But we've all got an example in mind.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Both are trying to guard against the error of the other.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Can I just say everyone listening,

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: you know a denomination has came into your head.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It may not be the same as mine but...

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's always the denomination that's not yours

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but that's slightly more extreme than yours.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Slightly to the right.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Go ahead, you were saying something.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the denomination that thinks

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: or the church that thinks that it is bad to be moved by beauty.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That somehow what it is to worship the Lord faithfully

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: is to by sheer force of will

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: just think about God

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and pray without any form of sentimentalism.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's an impoverished way of...

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You mean sentimental prayer?

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean sentimental in the good sense.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like God wants us to...

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_01]: This is lost for a bit.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: When you ever say in the good sense,

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_02]: meaning however I do it.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying I get it right.

[00:14:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Although...

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You're crying all the time in church.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Get it together, Paul.

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I probably could stand to do a little more effective...

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to be like looking in the back.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to be singing another chorus of Amazing Grace

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and like a single tear.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to pull out my flag.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Pull out your flag.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know there are like churches that probably do.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, okay, right.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm just saying like a single tear just drops from your eye.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I like sniff it back in.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_02]: With that exact sound effect.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So...

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_02]: You're going to fall more on the insensitive side.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean...

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably true.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not probably that way too.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's a healthy...

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a healthy kind of...

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Cultivating of the affections in worship that I think is...

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean David danced and Scripture talks about

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: the Lord delighting and dancing over his people.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't describe a...

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Aesthetic, stoic, insensible God.

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And so proper enjoyment of good things

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and proper delight in good things is part of how God designed this to be.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the insensible churchgoer

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: or the insensible church service is one that

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: doesn't make the good thing beautiful

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and doesn't rely on beauty to move the heart to the good thing.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course there are ways to err.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: There are millions of ways to get things wrong.

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There's only one way to get things right.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean that's something to keep in mind.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: There's always...

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And we talked last episode about this constant recalibration.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's dialectical.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You try one thing.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I think that was too sentimental.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't do that right.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So you try again and maybe...

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, maybe that was too in the other direction.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you keep like trying to go back and forth.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's how you tune your heart.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You realize that you've gone overboard in one direction.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You try to curb it back.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You overshoot in the other direction.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Sanctification is about constantly overshooting a little bit,

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_01]: but the distances with which you're overshooting

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_01]: as you get sanctified.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you get closer to the virtue at some point.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's components...

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like you're sketching out components to this

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: where there's your affections

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and then there's the object of those affections.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So you could have...

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_02]: You could be...

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: A lot of this depends on what you consider beauty.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You could be drawn to things that aren't beautiful.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Right?

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And they could have your affections.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So there has to be an ordering of your affections

[00:17:20] [SPEAKER_02]: to the things that are good.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's maybe not the best way to put it,

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's the way that makes sense to me.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Is that it's an acquired taste.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_02]: In many ways.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, there are things that are natural beauties,

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_02]: but there are a lot of things that are an acquired taste.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So order, even studying the scriptures, singing...

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I think people to varying degrees

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_02]: have a more natural inclination to find pleasure in these.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_02]: But these are actually things that we're supposed to find pleasure in.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Not every single moment and not to the same degree.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Temperments play into that.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Personalities play into that.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think you would say,

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe if you go from the negative

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and you say you never have any affection

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_02]: towards God in worship.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: If you never have affection in singing in prayer.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Well then that goes beyond...

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Something's defective at that point.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's something to consider,

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: not to over-correct.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Or I guess in this case,

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're saying you've got over-correct

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_02]: to get to the actual virtue,

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_02]: if you are insensitive,

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: does that mean that you try to will emotions

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in a particular moment?

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean part of it is

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you have to train yourself and it takes practice

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to even be able to take pleasure in certain things.

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean if we back up and think about

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: one way of thinking about virtue and vice,

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the virtuous person takes pleasure in the good things

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and is pained by evil.

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas for most of us, we're the opposite.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We are pained by the good thing

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and we take pleasure in the evil thing.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what sin is.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It distorts what we take pleasure in.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So pleasure perfects good activities.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can imagine someone who's doing something good,

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're doing it and they don't...

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not appealing,

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: their appetites aren't in it,

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: their heart isn't in it.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: There's something defective about that experience, right?

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: The person who never delights in their spouse,

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: never delights in their kids,

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: there's no pleasure taking in that.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Even if they're doing all of their duties,

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: there's something missing and defective about that.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And thankfully, there's a principle that holds generally

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: which is the more you continue to practice an activity,

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the more your heart will grow fonder into it.

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a matter of investment.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever you invest into,

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you're more likely to get pleasure from it.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's imperfect and we live in a fallen world

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and we can't expect all of this to be totally rectified

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: until the new creation,

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but there's something to that.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Where your heart is,

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: there your treasure will be also.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So what you decide to invest into,

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: your heart's going to follow that

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and your affections will follow it imperfectly

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's going to look like a couple steps forward,

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: one step back and all that sort of stuff,

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: but it is a general principle that holds true

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: as a guideline and one that we should practice,

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_01]: but it might not be perfect.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So if you invest in something,

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the affections generally come from that.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I think so.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Is the flip true if you don't have the infection?

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: If you don't have the affections,

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_02]: does that mean you're actually not practicing correctly?

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it might be.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You might have to look at it on a case-by-case basis,

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but you can imagine someone who

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: they're practicing something faithfully

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and because of some,

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a psychological disconnect.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They might not get that in this life,

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: but ideally, that's the way the process works

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's the way God designed us to be.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: When we do the good activity,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: we receive the pleasure from it

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: because pleasure perfects goodness

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and pleasure is the mark of the good activity

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and when you try to separate out the good activity

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: from the good, from the pleasure,

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean that error is the vice on either side.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So the intemperate overindulgent person

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: wants the pleasure, doesn't care about the activity.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The insensible person might care about the good activity

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but shuns the pleasure that comes with it.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So both of them are wrong.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The healthy temperate person takes both of them together.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They pursue good things

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and they get pleasure from doing the good thing

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and that recipe is the right one

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's really difficult to get spot on

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: in all the different circumstances.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody's insensitive.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They're doing that, I don't know if it's for pleasure

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but they're doing that because they want something good.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: They want control over their life.

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they want a certain outcome

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: or they're risk-averse.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They might think I'm not, you know,

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't handle this dangerous thing

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and if you think that's the case, then yes,

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: it's actually better for you to stay there

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: because again, this is a worse way.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a less bad way to err.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're like, I can't trust myself with alcohol.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a history of alcoholism in my family.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even going to touch that.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's totally fine.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that the ideal way to live?

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably not.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Like in the New Heavens,

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: New Earth will have wine.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be able to enjoy it temporarily

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but temperate use is the best way

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to be total abstinence is,

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_01]: let's call it like the lesser of two evils.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a better place to stop than the alternative.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So self-indulgence is the surpassing of certain limits.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We're going beyond what we need

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_02]: but going beyond what's appropriate

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: just to feed this insatiable lust or gluttony.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Is there a sense in which insensitivity

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_02]: also transgresses a boundary?

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: In the sense of not maybe transgressing a boundary

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: but actually drawing tighter lines than God draws.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Which would be the spirit of legalism.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's a good point.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I hadn't thought of that.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It would be constricting things beyond

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_02]: what God has said.

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And so on the one hand you could say

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_02]: God gives us these commands as the fences

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to preserve our joy,

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to keep us from those things that would impede our joy.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: But the fence has a playground

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: inside of it with kids playing around

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and a joyful family and all these types of things.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it's almost like the insensitive person

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: draws the fence so close that there's actually nothing

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it's encircling.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Which would also defeat the purpose of a fence.

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And so if you don't enjoy

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that self-control is actually meant to help you

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_02]: enjoy things in their proper order for their proper ends.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you don't enjoy

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: a thing that God has designed to be enjoyable

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_02]: then there's something again,

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: there's something defective about that.

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You're actually not experiencing

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_02]: or using the thing as it's intended.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're using it in a more restrictive, impoverished sense.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's almost as if you would say that

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: God adding taste to food is

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that he was wrong to do that.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you would say he's wrong

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_02]: but that there is no glory to that

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_02]: there's no necessary wisdom to that.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Which that would almost be a denial of beauty.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And interestingly I think it's probably tied to cynicism.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: We talked about the vice of being overly skeptical

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_02]: versus being overly charitable or being naive

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I suppose would be the other way.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And to be naive is closer to the virtue of

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: what is it?

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Charitability.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Charitability? Okay, I don't even know.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Regardless, that's not the point I'm trying to make.

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying that

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I think cynicism and insensitivity are tied together.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of you're seeing through everything.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I think C.S. Lewis had a great line.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: C.S. Lewis always has great lines.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_02]: He says something about if you see through everything

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you end up seeing nothing.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And there's an idea of

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_02]: your...

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's a devaluing of sentiment

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: as it's not practical.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't achieve anything.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't have an effect in the world.

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: It just seems like ooey-gooey feelings.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that attitude of skepticism

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: towards beauty

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: is a defective affection.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: There's something has gone wrong.

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a loss of wonder.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a loss of awe.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And probably at least

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: some dosage of pride in that.

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess what I'm trying to say is

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: there is a moral weight

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to enjoying the things God has called us to enjoy

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in the proper way for the proper ends.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And that there can be a self-righteousness

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're insensitive to think that you're the one

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: doing things correctly.

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when you're challenged on lacking affection

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: you poo-poo it as

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the ooey-gooey feeling stuff

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: that the world is messing with.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is true.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But that might not be your problem.

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And you could do with a little bit more

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: sentimentality.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess there's a sentiment and sentimentalism.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: He isn't always ruining everything.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But a sentiment seems to be

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: a proper affect attached to

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: something.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Proper is the key word.

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Think about the flip side though.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The monks who were

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: removing themselves from society

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Think about monks flipping

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: on their pillars.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's all I thought about when you said the flip side.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You said monks.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Flipping monks that's like a band or something

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: or like a bar.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But you can think of

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the reason why they wanted

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to remove themselves.

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: There could have been some self-righteousness involved

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: but you can imagine somebody who had decent motives.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You're talking about the monks that the

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Desert Fathers.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: The ones who moved into the desert specifically

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and they saw the wickedness

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Greco-Roman world.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They saw also that creeping

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: into the encroaching

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: on Christianity of the day

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and they thought this is bad.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So for the sake of

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: my soul, I'm going to remove

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: myself. And this is like you get

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: flea sexual immorality. There's a kind of

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: fleeing running in the opposite

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: direction. That means you're going to over

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: correct or over shoot.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's better than the alternative.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you think you are susceptible

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_01]: to certain kinds of sins or over-indulgence

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it might be better for you to over-shoot.

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where we mentioned the last

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast. Jesus said

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: if your hand's going to cause you to sin, better

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: to cut it off. So that's one way

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: to interpret insensibility here.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's better for you to be

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: to lose a little bit of your

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: enjoyment of the world here

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: than to risk your soul.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And being

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: bound to something in this

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: life is going to risk, is going to

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: put your soul in jeopardy. But the

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: abstinence is you're forgoing

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_01]: some goods of human experience.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to make your life non-ideal.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But it might still be better

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: than the alternative if you think you might have a problem there.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you're removal

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: from the goods and if you're removal

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: from pleasures because

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you think pleasure is bad, where you take

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: some delight in being, you know,

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I am stoic.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got an ascetic personality

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm not moved by

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, my appetites

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: in the way that the rest of these people are.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a kind that's really bad. You don't want to become

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that. That's wrapped up with pride,

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that's wrapped up with looking down at other people

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and it fails to recognize

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: no, God did make these things good

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and they're supposed to be pleasurable to us.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It can be dangerous in the hands

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of a vicious person.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And you don't want to be

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody who

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_02]: is pursuing something for a selfish

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and I mean that's ultimately a selfish and you're not really doing it because you care about

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: righteousness. You're doing it because of a sense of

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: superiority or something like that. But again, you have to

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: know yourself. I mean if you're listening to this

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and you're like, oh good,

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't have to worry about discipline

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: or temperance or any of these types of things

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because they don't want to become insensitive.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Unless

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: is that the

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02]: danger of falling into?

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably not. Most people

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: aren't going to fall into that.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Overindulgent side. Only the elite

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: are going to be insensitive like us.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: It takes a special

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of someone to commit to

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the way that we do.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's a good

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: reminder

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: especially the delight part. And you mentioned

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: a father delighting in his children. You wouldn't just want them to say,

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: well I pay the bills

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I go to work every day. I put food on the table

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: don't I? And you're kind of like

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I'm glad that you do that but the way

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you're saying that, I don't feel like you actually

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: care about us. Or it could be used

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_02]: as an excuse not to

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_02]: show the affection. You can point to these other things

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_02]: the kind of the fair cycle

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: we tithe our minted cumin

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: that way we

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: look over there Jesus we're doing this and he goes

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: well I'm talking about love, mercy and justice

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: okay but I'm doing this stuff

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: there's this kind of self justifying

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: there. I mean I don't want to overly

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: psychologize it but

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: there probably is

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: something to

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: asking ourselves

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: whether we

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're going to go to church

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: do you bring yourself to it? Are you willing

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: to

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: give an appropriate response

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's something to ask yourself

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: is it an appropriate response to the grace of God

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_02]: to be completely stoic

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: and emotionless. Is it a

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: response to refuse

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_02]: to be joyful when you are talking

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_02]: about his works of redemption

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and that

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to say manufacture but at least

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_02]: going in and saying

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: the way that I engage with these truths

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: is important. God actually cares how

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I respond to these truths

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_02]: certainly through actual obedience but also

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: through

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe I'll backtrack

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it bears reflecting

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_02]: on what our affections say

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_02]: about our habits, our practices and what we value

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: sometimes people just don't

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_02]: they just feel self-conscious about

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_02]: being joyful

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_02]: about God. It feels cringy

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: as the Gen Zers say

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's the actual thing

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: well there's a fear of man in that

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_02]: right that's cowardice again

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: there's a cowardice in that

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and just to say I want

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to wholeheartedly worship God doesn't mean not to bring

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_02]: streamers you probably shouldn't

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: or do some weird

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know emotion-filled things think about the worst stereotype

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_02]: we're not talking about that don't do that

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and probably

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_02]: the people who need to like grow in this

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_02]: are going to be in a million miles

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: of doing something like that

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but it would be

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: even something like

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_02]: responding with joy

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: to hearing the gospel

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_02]: responding with joy

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to singing songs

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: responding with joy to seeing your brothers and sisters in Christ

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that there's

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: something important there

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_02]: that can be missed. Don't be insensitive

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not just important in an abstract

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: sense but it's actually

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: good and healthy for us

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and you

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a kind of weariness

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of soul and some writers who write

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: about temperedness talk about this

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the human soul gets weary

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and tired and God builds

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: pleasures into good activities

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to help rejuvenate the soul

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: so if you're constantly closing yourself off

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: from the goodness of these

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: pleasures it's not going to be a surprise

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: when you become more cranky

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: or irritable and you're going to become less

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: able to fulfill your obligations

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: if you don't have these moments of

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: in the same way that you need food to nourish

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: your body you need certain

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: pleasures of sociality

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: of nature, of beauty, of friendship

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and not just the good activity

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that itself like oh well I was with Brian

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: for an hour today I did my social obligation

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: for friendship no like to delight in that

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really difficult to do when it's with Brian

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: but sometimes it's delightful

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's rejuvenating for the soul and God

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: designed us to be that way. I do have a meter

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: of social interaction

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: that you have to have with me

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Have I filled it on this trip?

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. Very good

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually I've fulfilled my social obligation

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you can go into

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: a coffin now and sleep

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got my streamers

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh gosh. Did you grow up in a charismatic church?

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I did. Yeah we did flags

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and streamers and stuff. Were you ever part of the flag team?

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_01]: No comment. Tell me

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, you were

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: There may or may not be a video

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhere on Facebook of an old flag

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_02]: What kind of flag are you flying? The Egyptian national flag

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It was the People's Republic of China

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: actually

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Both of those would not go well

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: anyway

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like they called it color guard

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and we did flags

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to send to music

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to Christian

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So what kind of music are you talking about?

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a Christian worship song

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you choreograph?

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean no, I just did what they told me to do

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you just did what the spirit led you to do?

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I did. I was the opposite of insensible

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you have a go-to move?

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean we weren't exactly

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: able to improvise. We did what everybody else did

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_02]: How old were you when this happened?

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, this was like high school. I was like 13, 14

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the past generation

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: This was like two years ago

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I wish. This is me before Calvinism

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: theology

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It hardened you into an insensitive stone

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And now I'm trying to recover

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the balance, the temperateness in between those two

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Did you feel the power of the spirit?

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And coursing through that flag?

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I feel like whatever way

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I answer that, I'm going to say something

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: heretical

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I was open to the move of God

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: well-intentioned, poorly executed

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll say that

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Man, I gotta see this

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe. We're not going to post it in the show notes

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: If I find it, I'm posting it

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my gosh. I would die

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But again here

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe this is our cynicism

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Perhaps it's better to

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we need to over-correct

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we need to start a color guard flag

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: That's right. We need to over-correct

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: our insensitivity

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: by doing the color flag

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: or whatever

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Color guard

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It won't be self-indulgent

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_02]: because it'll be tempered

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be so cringy

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it'll be over-correcting. It'll be amazing

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You get what I'm saying? If you're so far

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_01]: If we over-correct

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but we're going to be so stiff because we're like so

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_01]: deep entrenched in the insensitivity camp

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: What is impossible with man is

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: impossible with God

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That's convicting

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go. It's going to make my soul less weary

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: This is what's going to make the podcast take off

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: This is good

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is a great conversation about

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: another respectable

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_02]: sin and another invisible vice

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: These are helpful conversations

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: because

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of times when we're too generic about sin

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: we don't actually know how to counteract

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: the negative things in our life

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because we have to be specific and we have to be practical

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you have any practical thoughts

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: just to finish off with insensitivity

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I guess

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: one thing could be

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_02]: one, just being aware

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: is that you're bent

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think part of it

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: is just being around beauty and appreciating it

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Allow yourself to

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_02]: There's got to be something you find beautiful and dwelling in that

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there is

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a will

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: of a

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: volitional component of saying

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to engage in this

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm locked in, I'm going to spend time with them

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and trusting that process

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that over time it's going to develop

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: a desire

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever guards you have up begin to let those go

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and be okay with allowing your heart

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to be stirred

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and ask God to do it

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and move your will in your affections

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_01]: in ways that are good and appropriate

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And you hear people hate running but they know it's good

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: after a while they actually enjoy running

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they can't not run

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't believe those people

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Hypothetically, if it's possible there's an example

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: There's something to learn

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Learn there

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Great conversation Paul

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and we'll see some links

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: in the show notes, go check those out

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and catch you guys next time