The Surprising Jewish Roots of the Last Supper with Matt Colvin

[00:00:00] What does the Lord's Supper have to do with the Jewish Passover? According to Matt Colvin, a lot. In his book, The Lost Supper, Revisiting Passover and the Origins of the Eucharist, he unravels the mystery surrounding the Lord's Supper by connecting this ritual to the Old Testament Passover meal.

[00:00:17] Specifically, we're going to discuss the coded communication that Jesus implements to communicate his messianic identity to his disciples, the nature of the fellowship that we share with Christ in the Lord's Supper, and the narratival way in which we participate in the death and resurrection of Christ through the sacraments, as well as talking about the relationship between the Church and Israel.

[00:00:45] You're listening to Thatll Preach. Welcome to the show. Today we have, for the first time ever, our first third-time guest. We have Dr. Matt Colvin on the show. Matt, thanks for joining us for another go-around.

[00:01:01] But we had a lot of great conversations. I always pick you for the controversial topics. I think our first episode, you were debunking bishops?

[00:01:11] Uh-oh. No, no, no. That's not quite what I was doing. Avestolic succession maybe.

[00:01:16] That's right. I was just trying to get you in trouble. I was just trying to get you in trouble. I was thinking about making this segment Colvin Unleashed or something like that.

[00:01:25] This is not the ethos I want to cultivate.

[00:01:28] No, no, no. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just trying to get the clicks.

[00:01:32] But, you know, you've had a lot of great insights on a vast number of topics. We met, obviously, through Davenant Institute, took one of your classes and learned a ton from that, was really challenged by that.

[00:01:44] And you have written a book a couple years ago, but I think it's got a lot of relevance even today, about the Eucharist, about the Lord's Supper.

[00:01:57] And this is a book that I think is challenging a lot of ways. It's called The Lost Supper, Revisiting Passover and the Origins of the Eucharist.

[00:02:06] Well, the book is very interesting because it's covering a topic that I think has been a source of division in the Church.

[00:02:13] It's had a lot of debate over it, about questions of presence and substance and what is happening and all these types of things.

[00:02:22] And so your book is addressing the Lord's Supper from a little bit of a different angle, which I thought was interesting.

[00:02:29] And one of the things you do that I think is helpful is you step back from those debates, which are important,

[00:02:36] and you start asking about the origins of why the disciples and Jesus, why does Jesus institute this particular ritual?

[00:02:45] What is the background? What did the disciples understand was happening?

[00:02:48] Which I think is a very fruitful place to start.

[00:02:52] And so that's what I'm curious to hear from you.

[00:02:55] You explore the connection between the Passover and the Eucharist, and that's a very, I think, fruitful line of inquiry.

[00:03:02] So what initially led you to make those connections?

[00:03:06] Well, to be honest, there's centuries and centuries long controversy over the Eucharist.

[00:03:13] And to my mind was a flag saying something is not being understood right here.

[00:03:23] The fact that these debates are absolutely intractable for centuries now means that both sides are coming at it probably wrongly.

[00:03:35] And for me, as a classicist, someone who, and not just any classicist, but a classicist specializing in Presocratic philosophy,

[00:03:45] which survives as little fragments embedded as quotations in other authors.

[00:03:52] And so there's very much a sense that, well, those fragments are often deployed by later authors like Christian Church Fathers, Clement of Alexandria or something.

[00:04:06] They'll use fragments of Presocratics in ways that the Presocratics never really intended.

[00:04:12] So that's kind of my academic background.

[00:04:14] I was someone who had a lot of practice looking at texts very closely to see what their meaning must have been in their original context,

[00:04:30] and attempting to reconstruct that by the slightest of clues.

[00:04:36] Approaching texts with an understanding that they're written by human beings using language

[00:04:41] and the meaning of the text of Isis from the thought world of the author.

[00:04:51] And it needs to be accessible to people he was talking to,

[00:04:54] so that what we're dealing with is originally an act of communication between parties in the ancient world.

[00:05:04] And then, but then an awareness from my Presocratic studies that, boy, these things take on a life of their own.

[00:05:12] That later theologians and philosophers used them for quite other purposes.

[00:05:18] And so that kind of gave me a nose to sniff out when is something being misinterpreted?

[00:05:26] When are all the little signposts to its original meaning being ignored?

[00:05:33] When are things being done with a text that are really being driven by a different system?

[00:05:41] It seems to me that when we come to the Bible and we look at the New Testament texts about the Eucharist,

[00:05:50] I read for me especially 1 Corinthians 10, 1 Corinthians 11,

[00:05:54] accounts in the Gospels about Last Supper.

[00:05:57] When we read these texts, they're deeply Jewish texts.

[00:06:03] And they haven't been dealt with as deeply Jewish texts.

[00:06:08] So that's my classicist approach to this,

[00:06:13] is we want to come at these texts and see what they meant to the Jews who were saying these things and reading these things.

[00:06:22] And then the other big motivator for me,

[00:06:26] and the reason I zoomed in on this issue,

[00:06:28] is my marriage.

[00:06:29] I'm married to a Jewish lady.

[00:06:35] And she is a Christian,

[00:06:37] but she was also raised Jewish on both sides,

[00:06:41] mom and her dad.

[00:06:43] And shortly after we got married,

[00:06:46] I experienced a Passover Seder for the first time.

[00:06:51] And I did so as a Greek,

[00:06:55] a PhD student in Greek,

[00:06:58] who knew no Hebrew at all.

[00:07:00] And I've since learned it,

[00:07:01] and I'm working on Aramaic now.

[00:07:03] But at the time,

[00:07:06] the Hebrew prayers in the Haggadah,

[00:07:10] as the Seder was going,

[00:07:12] we were going through it,

[00:07:14] they just sort of washed over me

[00:07:16] in total incomprehension.

[00:07:19] And then suddenly there was this word,

[00:07:22] Aramaic Coleman,

[00:07:23] which my ears perked up and said,

[00:07:25] oh,

[00:07:26] that sounds Greek,

[00:07:27] but it can't be.

[00:07:28] It must be a Jewish word.

[00:07:29] And so that was a,

[00:07:32] that was a tiny little sign point,

[00:07:35] pointing to a signpost,

[00:07:37] pointing to something that hadn't been understood.

[00:07:40] It turns out that the rabbis of the Mishnah and the Talmud

[00:07:46] also don't know what this word,

[00:07:48] Alphakomen,

[00:07:49] means.

[00:07:50] It's,

[00:07:51] it occurs in Mishnah Pesachim,

[00:07:55] chapter 10,

[00:07:56] where we have the three different sons

[00:08:01] that are asking questions.

[00:08:02] And it's,

[00:08:03] the question is put by the wise son

[00:08:07] in the celebration of the Passover.

[00:08:09] He asks,

[00:08:10] what is the meaning of all the ordinances,

[00:08:13] laws and commandments that God has given us,

[00:08:15] commanding us to celebrate the Passover?

[00:08:17] What,

[00:08:18] you know,

[00:08:18] is he asking,

[00:08:19] he's asking for the whole shebang.

[00:08:21] He wants to know what's the real meaning of Passover.

[00:08:24] And the answer comes back.

[00:08:26] We do not conclude the Passover lamb

[00:08:30] with Aramaic Coleman.

[00:08:32] What does that mean?

[00:08:33] Well,

[00:08:33] the rabbis debate about it.

[00:08:35] And some of them say it means nuts.

[00:08:37] And some of them say it means dessert.

[00:08:39] Some of them,

[00:08:39] some of them say it means we don't go house to house

[00:08:42] and join other people's Passover celebrations.

[00:08:45] We stay in the one that we're in.

[00:08:47] Modern scholars,

[00:08:48] some of them say it means we don't engage in

[00:08:50] bacchanalian revelry with lots of drunkenness.

[00:08:54] But it's,

[00:08:54] it's obvious looking at it that nobody really knows.

[00:08:59] The rabbis don't know.

[00:09:00] They're guessing.

[00:09:01] And when they say nuts and fruit,

[00:09:06] they're scratching their heads and saying,

[00:09:07] what would you conclude a meal with?

[00:09:09] Well,

[00:09:09] this is dessert in the ancient world.

[00:09:11] So that's,

[00:09:11] that's the suggestions.

[00:09:13] But they don't know because the word actually is Greek.

[00:09:18] Morphologically and linguistically,

[00:09:20] it's not a Hebrew word.

[00:09:21] It's written in Hebrew characters in the Mishnah and discussed in the Talmud again,

[00:09:27] as though it were a lost and unknown Hebrew word that the rabbis don't know what it means.

[00:09:33] But,

[00:09:35] etymologically,

[00:09:36] it's from the Greek,

[00:09:36] African Nehomai,

[00:09:37] to arrive.

[00:09:38] And so,

[00:09:39] the most likely suggestion was made by first one Jewish scholar,

[00:09:46] a Jewish Swiss scholar in the 1920s,

[00:09:50] suggested that it actually means the coming one,

[00:09:54] the arriving one,

[00:09:55] and that it stood for the Messiah.

[00:09:58] In the 1960s,

[00:10:00] another Jewish scholar,

[00:10:01] David Daube,

[00:10:02] who fought at Oxford,

[00:10:04] history of law,

[00:10:06] scholar,

[00:10:06] and was also quite important in 20th century New Testament studies,

[00:10:12] working with W.D. Davies.

[00:10:13] A number of Oxford and Cambridge New Testament scholars,

[00:10:17] had seminars with him.

[00:10:19] He took up the thesis again,

[00:10:20] and said,

[00:10:21] yeah,

[00:10:23] Eisler,

[00:10:24] the Swiss scholar from the 20s,

[00:10:26] he was right,

[00:10:27] it actually does mean the coming one.

[00:10:29] And,

[00:10:30] what is most,

[00:10:31] the most likely account of it,

[00:10:33] is that,

[00:10:34] the rabbis said,

[00:10:36] aha,

[00:10:36] there's all kinds of Christians,

[00:10:38] that are taking our Passover Seder,

[00:10:40] and they are making it all about Jesus,

[00:10:44] and they are taking a piece of bread,

[00:10:47] and,

[00:10:48] they are referring to it as the,

[00:10:50] the coming one,

[00:10:52] and we want them to stop it.

[00:10:54] There must be,

[00:10:55] no Jesus,

[00:10:57] in the Passover.

[00:10:58] Passover is about the Exodus.

[00:11:01] And,

[00:11:01] Daube pointed out another,

[00:11:03] rather amazing thing,

[00:11:05] which is if you read the Passover Haggadah,

[00:11:10] which is an annual celebration by Jews,

[00:11:13] of the Exodus,

[00:11:15] it contains,

[00:11:16] no mention,

[00:11:17] of Moses.

[00:11:18] And,

[00:11:19] when I saw,

[00:11:19] I heard that,

[00:11:20] I said,

[00:11:20] whoa,

[00:11:21] what can that be?

[00:11:23] And,

[00:11:23] Daube says,

[00:11:24] it's like having an annual celebration,

[00:11:26] of the British victory,

[00:11:27] in World War II,

[00:11:28] without mentioning Churchill.

[00:11:30] you can't do that.

[00:11:31] Why would you do that?

[00:11:34] It's a cutting off their nose,

[00:11:36] despite their face.

[00:11:37] There must be no human mediator.

[00:11:40] There must be no one like,

[00:11:41] even like,

[00:11:42] this Christ that the Christians are worshipping.

[00:11:45] And so,

[00:11:46] we'll,

[00:11:47] sort of,

[00:11:48] delete,

[00:11:49] we'll redact Moses,

[00:11:50] from Passover.

[00:11:52] All right.

[00:11:53] So those,

[00:11:53] I think I've given you a sense of,

[00:11:56] why did I come to this topic?

[00:11:58] Those are not the reasons why,

[00:12:00] I advance the thesis I advance in my book.

[00:12:03] There's some of the reasons that I got interested,

[00:12:05] in the topic.

[00:12:07] Nowadays,

[00:12:08] for instance,

[00:12:08] there is,

[00:12:10] as part of Jewish,

[00:12:11] Passover observance,

[00:12:13] there's a ritual,

[00:12:15] finding the Afrikomen,

[00:12:16] the,

[00:12:17] the father of the family will,

[00:12:19] wrap up one piece of matzah,

[00:12:21] one piece of unleavened bread,

[00:12:22] in a napkin,

[00:12:24] and hide it somewhere in the house.

[00:12:26] And then there's this children's game,

[00:12:27] of snooping around,

[00:12:29] trying to find,

[00:12:30] the wrapped up piece of unleavened bread.

[00:12:33] Which when they find it,

[00:12:35] the father has to redeem it,

[00:12:36] give candy or coins,

[00:12:38] or something,

[00:12:39] to buy it back from them.

[00:12:40] And I think there's a lot of,

[00:12:42] modern Messianic Judaism,

[00:12:44] writers that have,

[00:12:46] seized upon this,

[00:12:47] and said,

[00:12:47] see,

[00:12:48] it's,

[00:12:48] it's the Messiah.

[00:12:50] And it's,

[00:12:50] it's striped,

[00:12:52] it's got little holes in it,

[00:12:54] he's been pierced,

[00:12:56] it gets hidden away,

[00:12:57] like he's buried,

[00:12:58] wrapped in grave clothes,

[00:13:00] like a napkin,

[00:13:01] and then,

[00:13:02] resurrected by the children,

[00:13:04] redeemed by the father.

[00:13:06] Of course,

[00:13:07] the objection,

[00:13:07] then from,

[00:13:08] non-Christian Jews is,

[00:13:10] yeah,

[00:13:11] but,

[00:13:11] we don't have any evidence,

[00:13:13] for that game being played,

[00:13:15] until the medieval period.

[00:13:18] You know,

[00:13:18] it's probably,

[00:13:20] 1200,

[00:13:21] 13,

[00:13:21] 400,

[00:13:22] Renaissance era,

[00:13:25] that,

[00:13:26] that custom comes to be.

[00:13:27] It doesn't seem to be ancient,

[00:13:29] there's no evidence for it,

[00:13:30] in the mission of the Talmud.

[00:13:32] And so I,

[00:13:34] this,

[00:13:34] I just want to be clear,

[00:13:35] because there will be some people,

[00:13:36] when they see,

[00:13:37] oh,

[00:13:37] a book about Passover,

[00:13:38] and,

[00:13:39] the,

[00:13:39] the Eucharist,

[00:13:40] they'll say,

[00:13:41] oh,

[00:13:41] I'll bet he talks about the Alpha Coman.

[00:13:43] Well,

[00:13:43] yeah,

[00:13:43] I do talk about the Alpha Coman,

[00:13:45] in,

[00:13:45] in the book.

[00:13:45] That's the Greek word,

[00:13:47] in the Passover Haggadah,

[00:13:48] that,

[00:13:49] got me interested,

[00:13:50] in this question.

[00:13:52] We can talk more about it shortly,

[00:13:54] but,

[00:13:55] it's not,

[00:13:56] a load-bearing,

[00:13:57] argument,

[00:13:58] in the book.

[00:13:59] The argument of the book is,

[00:14:01] this is a meal,

[00:14:02] that Jews,

[00:14:03] were partaking of,

[00:14:04] and talking about,

[00:14:05] in very Jewish ways.

[00:14:07] And if we want to understand,

[00:14:08] how it works,

[00:14:09] how Jesus thought it worked,

[00:14:10] how Paul thought it worked,

[00:14:12] then we need to start thinking,

[00:14:13] Jewishly back.

[00:14:15] So,

[00:14:15] what got you interested,

[00:14:16] was you noticed,

[00:14:17] that the rabbis,

[00:14:18] didn't really have an explanation,

[00:14:19] for what Alpha Coman meant.

[00:14:22] Yeah.

[00:14:22] And then you go.

[00:14:23] Lots of conflicting explanations.

[00:14:24] They're conflicting explanations.

[00:14:25] And then you realize,

[00:14:26] linguistically,

[00:14:27] it's because it wasn't a Hebrew word,

[00:14:28] it was a Greek word.

[00:14:29] That's right.

[00:14:29] It's a Greek word.

[00:14:30] Yeah.

[00:14:30] And,

[00:14:30] it seems like you're saying,

[00:14:32] that,

[00:14:33] the,

[00:14:33] the hypothesis would be,

[00:14:35] that,

[00:14:37] they adopted that word,

[00:14:38] because it was already,

[00:14:39] a word being used,

[00:14:40] in Christian circles.

[00:14:41] That's,

[00:14:42] that's my belief.

[00:14:42] I see.

[00:14:43] Okay.

[00:14:44] What I think that,

[00:14:44] is that we have some evidence.

[00:14:46] For instance,

[00:14:47] Ephraim,

[00:14:48] Assyrian,

[00:14:49] who is,

[00:14:51] possibly Jewish himself,

[00:14:53] um,

[00:14:55] he,

[00:14:56] he wrote,

[00:14:57] he writes early Christian hymns,

[00:14:59] and poetry,

[00:15:00] and,

[00:15:01] um,

[00:15:02] he uses the term,

[00:15:03] Ho'afi Comanos,

[00:15:05] of the comment,

[00:15:06] um,

[00:15:07] of Jesus.

[00:15:09] Jesus,

[00:15:10] Jesus is the coming one,

[00:15:11] the arriving one,

[00:15:12] the one who came,

[00:15:13] the Athikomenos,

[00:15:14] from heaven to earth.

[00:15:15] Um,

[00:15:17] so,

[00:15:17] he,

[00:15:18] the fact that,

[00:15:19] that is used,

[00:15:20] um,

[00:15:22] in,

[00:15:24] early Christian texts,

[00:15:25] uh,

[00:15:27] the second place it occurs,

[00:15:28] is in Melito of Sardis,

[00:15:29] uh,

[00:15:31] his discourse on the Passover,

[00:15:33] Peri Pascha,

[00:15:35] uh,

[00:15:35] Melito's second century.

[00:15:37] So,

[00:15:37] quite early church father,

[00:15:39] probably also Jewish.

[00:15:41] he's got,

[00:15:42] so,

[00:15:43] I'm,

[00:15:44] I'm going to talk more about him a little bit later,

[00:15:46] Lord willing,

[00:15:47] depending on how our conversation goes,

[00:15:48] but,

[00:15:49] he has,

[00:15:50] he's actually kind of,

[00:15:52] typical of the problems,

[00:15:53] like,

[00:15:54] why did the church not,

[00:15:57] preserve,

[00:15:58] some of this Jewish context of,

[00:16:01] their Eucharist?

[00:16:02] Um,

[00:16:03] I think we can see why,

[00:16:05] in Melito.

[00:16:06] But Melito's Peri Pascha,

[00:16:08] I commend it to everybody,

[00:16:09] and you should go read it,

[00:16:10] everybody,

[00:16:10] every Christian pastor should,

[00:16:11] take a stroll through Melito's text,

[00:16:14] it is,

[00:16:15] pretty much,

[00:16:15] a Christian Passover Haggadah.

[00:16:18] Um,

[00:16:19] it is,

[00:16:20] taking all the elements of,

[00:16:22] the Jewish Passover Haggadah,

[00:16:23] and it's,

[00:16:25] answering them,

[00:16:26] um,

[00:16:27] in dialogue with them,

[00:16:29] uh,

[00:16:29] from a Christian standpoint.

[00:16:31] But anyway,

[00:16:31] he uses the term,

[00:16:32] Afikomen,

[00:16:33] also,

[00:16:34] uh,

[00:16:34] of,

[00:16:35] of Jesus arriving.

[00:16:36] So they were responding to Christians,

[00:16:39] using Afikomen,

[00:16:40] in their Passover,

[00:16:42] celebrations?

[00:16:43] That's my,

[00:16:43] that's my suggestion.

[00:16:44] So Christians were celebrating the Passover,

[00:16:46] Yeah.

[00:16:47] in distinction from even,

[00:16:48] the Eucharist.

[00:16:50] Well,

[00:16:51] remember that,

[00:16:52] the first Christians were Jews,

[00:16:53] so they would have continued celebrating the Passover,

[00:16:57] and they would have seen the Passover in a totally new light,

[00:17:00] given their belief in the Messiah who had come.

[00:17:04] Um,

[00:17:05] I don't think it's possible for,

[00:17:07] for any Jew who believes that Jesus is Messiah to continue celebrating the Passover without making it all about him,

[00:17:14] because,

[00:17:15] uh,

[00:17:15] it is all about him.

[00:17:18] Um,

[00:17:18] and so I think what you had was,

[00:17:21] um,

[00:17:23] I mean,

[00:17:23] let me just add one thing about this Afikomenos term.

[00:17:27] We have similar words that are used in the Bible.

[00:17:30] For instance,

[00:17:31] when,

[00:17:31] when John is in,

[00:17:32] John the Baptist is in prison,

[00:17:34] his disciples are sent to Jesus,

[00:17:36] and they ask him,

[00:17:36] are you,

[00:17:38] hoerikomenos,

[00:17:39] the coming one?

[00:17:40] It's a different verb.

[00:17:42] It's kind of similar,

[00:17:43] but it's a,

[00:17:44] it's a verb of,

[00:17:45] um,

[00:17:47] Jewish eschatological expectation.

[00:17:50] Yeah.

[00:17:50] It's not about,

[00:17:51] he's making a journey so much as we're waiting for him to arrive.

[00:17:55] Um,

[00:17:56] we're waiting for the coming of the Messiah.

[00:17:59] Uh,

[00:17:59] think of the,

[00:18:00] the fervent expectation that we see from the Galilean disciples that Jesus calls first.

[00:18:06] We have found him of whom the prophets and Moses are supposed to be.

[00:18:09] Um,

[00:18:11] could this be the Messiah?

[00:18:13] That's the sort of expectation that early Jewish Christians had labored under and that they now thought was fulfilled,

[00:18:21] um,

[00:18:22] in,

[00:18:22] in Jesus.

[00:18:23] And to,

[00:18:25] I mean,

[00:18:26] remember that Passover itself is a holiday that is,

[00:18:31] was already fraught with Messianic expectations.

[00:18:34] Um,

[00:18:35] all the false messiahs we know about from the ancient world,

[00:18:38] Judas of Galilee in the days of the census,

[00:18:41] John of Gishala,

[00:18:44] even Barcock by himself in the second century.

[00:18:47] They all start there.

[00:18:49] Josephus says,

[00:18:50] man,

[00:18:50] on these festivals,

[00:18:52] stasis,

[00:18:53] rebellions,

[00:18:54] ordinarily occur.

[00:18:55] Passover.

[00:18:56] In other words,

[00:18:57] uh,

[00:18:58] if you want to be a Messiah figure,

[00:19:00] you want to lead Jews in rebelling against the Romans,

[00:19:03] Passover is the day you kick off your movement because that's when everybody,

[00:19:08] um,

[00:19:09] is flush with expectation.

[00:19:14] there,

[00:19:14] there's a belief that on the night when they were redeemed from Egypt on that same night,

[00:19:21] they will be redeemed.

[00:19:23] Um,

[00:19:23] we're expecting the Messiah to come at Passover time.

[00:19:27] Um,

[00:19:28] and look,

[00:19:28] he did.

[00:19:29] So let's actually look at the text.

[00:19:31] You have,

[00:19:32] uh,

[00:19:32] Mark 14,

[00:19:33] I think in your book is where you sort of start and you're trying to piece together some details to understand what the disciples and more importantly,

[00:19:44] Jesus were thinking they were doing when they were doing this,

[00:19:48] this meal in the upper room.

[00:19:50] I might just,

[00:19:50] I'm just going to read,

[00:19:52] uh,

[00:19:52] Mark 14,

[00:19:55] I guess,

[00:19:55] 12 to 25.

[00:19:56] Maybe that'll give us the breadth of it.

[00:19:59] I'm going to grab my grief Bible.

[00:20:00] What do you do with that?

[00:20:02] Gotcha.

[00:20:03] Uh,

[00:20:04] verse 12,

[00:20:05] it says,

[00:20:05] and on the first day of unleavened bread,

[00:20:07] when they sacrificed the Passover lamb,

[00:20:10] his disciples said to him,

[00:20:11] where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?

[00:20:16] And he sent two of his disciples and said to them,

[00:20:18] go into the city and a man carrying a jar of water will meet you,

[00:20:22] follow him.

[00:20:23] And wherever he enters,

[00:20:24] say to the master of the house,

[00:20:26] the teacher says,

[00:20:27] where is my guest room?

[00:20:28] Where I may eat the Passover with my disciples.

[00:20:31] And he will show you a large upper room furnished and ready there.

[00:20:34] Prepare for us.

[00:20:35] And the disciples set out and went to the city and found it just as he had told them.

[00:20:40] And they prepared the Passover.

[00:20:42] When it was evening,

[00:20:43] he came with the 12.

[00:20:44] And as they were reclining at table and eating,

[00:20:46] Jesus said,

[00:20:47] truly,

[00:20:47] I say to you,

[00:20:48] one of you will betray me.

[00:20:50] One who is eating with me.

[00:20:52] They began to be sorrowful and to say to him one after another,

[00:20:54] is it I?

[00:20:56] He said to them,

[00:20:57] it is one of the 12,

[00:20:58] one who is dipping bread into the dish with me.

[00:21:00] For the son of man goes as it is written of him,

[00:21:02] but woe to that man by whom the son of man is betrayed.

[00:21:05] It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.

[00:21:08] And as they were eating,

[00:21:10] he took bread and after blessing it,

[00:21:12] broke it and gave it to them and said,

[00:21:14] take,

[00:21:15] this is my body.

[00:21:16] And he took a cup and when he had given thanks,

[00:21:19] he gave it to them and they drank of it.

[00:21:21] And he said to them,

[00:21:23] this is my blood of the covenant,

[00:21:25] which is poured out for many.

[00:21:26] Truly I say to you,

[00:21:28] I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it

[00:21:32] in the kingdom of God.

[00:21:33] I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

[00:21:36] And so that's from the ESV translation.

[00:21:38] And so you have a little sketching of preparation for the Passover and going

[00:21:43] to the upper room and then this interesting meal that Jesus shares and a

[00:21:48] ritual attached to it.

[00:21:49] So take us through this.

[00:21:51] What are some things we need to pay attention to in this account?

[00:21:56] I would point everybody to one of the classic treatments of the Passover in

[00:22:02] the New Testament,

[00:22:04] specifically of the last supper,

[00:22:06] which is Yarkim Yeramias's Eucharistic words of Jesus.

[00:22:12] And in Yeramias's book,

[00:22:14] he has a list.

[00:22:15] I don't have it on me right now,

[00:22:17] so I'm not going to remember them all,

[00:22:18] but of 18 different little details that very clearly prove that this was

[00:22:26] Passover meal.

[00:22:27] The use of wine,

[00:22:28] the fact that they're reclining,

[00:22:30] the fact that they're in an upper room that seems to be rented,

[00:22:33] the fact that they're staying in Bethany,

[00:22:36] which for purposes of pilgrim feasts was considered legally part of Jerusalem,

[00:22:42] so you can celebrate there.

[00:22:46] The fact that Jesus is speaking words over food and wine is also a distinctively Jewish thing.

[00:22:56] The Passover Haggadah to this day records words that Hillel spoke when he made a little

[00:23:04] matzah and marmor sandwich, bitter herbs and unleavened bread together,

[00:23:12] that he ate it that way.

[00:23:14] So,

[00:23:15] you know,

[00:23:15] we have evidence that other people did similar things to what Jesus is doing.

[00:23:20] The difference,

[00:23:20] of course,

[00:23:21] here is that he's making it all about him,

[00:23:23] that he's putting forward himself as the fulfillment and the meaning of this meal.

[00:23:30] One of the things that I think is really interesting and noteworthy about what goes on at the last supper is that

[00:23:40] Jesus uses coded communication.

[00:23:43] He doesn't just come right out and explain everything.

[00:23:47] And he does that not only in talking about himself,

[00:23:51] but also in addressing the question of the disciples,

[00:23:54] what is it I who am going to betray you?

[00:23:56] Because what does he do to answer that question?

[00:23:59] He sets up,

[00:24:02] as it were,

[00:24:03] a coded piece of bread.

[00:24:05] It's the one I give this to.

[00:24:07] And he does that so that he can privately communicate that to some disciples who are in the know about the meaning of this piece of bread he's giving to Judas,

[00:24:20] and not communicate fully to everybody else,

[00:24:23] including perhaps to Judas himself.

[00:24:26] Judas doesn't necessarily know that the rest of it,

[00:24:30] that any other disciples,

[00:24:31] Peter and John especially,

[00:24:33] are now clued in that he's the betrayer.

[00:24:36] So that seems to be a distinctive move by Jesus to use the bread at this meal to make coded statements.

[00:24:48] One of the coded statements I think he's making,

[00:24:51] the central contention he's making,

[00:24:53] is that he's the Messiah.

[00:24:56] And the way that must have been made was if every Jew was already eating a piece of bread and expecting the Messiah,

[00:25:05] which they seem to have been doing.

[00:25:08] In other words,

[00:25:09] for Jesus to say,

[00:25:12] this is my body,

[00:25:14] which I argue in the book pretty much amounts to,

[00:25:18] this is me myself.

[00:25:20] That's kind of the way Aramaic uses this word,

[00:25:23] goof,

[00:25:25] or goofah.

[00:25:26] It's to make clear that we're talking about someone himself.

[00:25:33] It's kind of an intensifier.

[00:25:36] It's not,

[00:25:37] I think it's a mistake to read,

[00:25:39] this is my body through sort of either Greek platonic eyes,

[00:25:45] or the eyes of Descartes,

[00:25:48] with mind-body dualism in mind.

[00:25:51] That's not what Jesus means.

[00:25:52] He doesn't mean this is my body in distinction from my soul,

[00:25:56] from my mind.

[00:25:57] He means this is me.

[00:25:59] Well,

[00:26:01] you know,

[00:26:04] if I have a piece of Halloween candy,

[00:26:06] and I hold it up,

[00:26:07] I say,

[00:26:07] Brian,

[00:26:07] this is,

[00:26:08] this is my body.

[00:26:10] What on earth are you talking about?

[00:26:12] Everybody would be boggled by that statement.

[00:26:16] It would make no sense.

[00:26:18] And so,

[00:26:20] we need to come at the question of,

[00:26:23] what does Jesus mean?

[00:26:26] With the understanding that it is an act of communication

[00:26:29] between Jesus and his disciples.

[00:26:31] And it doesn't seem to have been an especially mysterious one.

[00:26:36] It's not one,

[00:26:38] but we're not told,

[00:26:39] for instance,

[00:26:40] that,

[00:26:40] and then Jesus took them aside and said,

[00:26:43] let me explain to you about Aristotelian substances and accidents.

[00:26:47] And then you can understand the mystery of transubstantiation.

[00:26:51] And then when you have this bread,

[00:26:53] you'll know that you should bow down to it,

[00:26:55] because it's actually me.

[00:26:56] No,

[00:26:57] he doesn't do that.

[00:26:59] Nor does he even engage in Augustinian talk about the sign,

[00:27:08] the signum and the race,

[00:27:10] the sign and the substance,

[00:27:11] or the sign and the reality of the sacrament.

[00:27:15] That also seems to be a sort of conceptual world

[00:27:19] that's alien to what Jesus is doing.

[00:27:23] I note in the book that

[00:27:26] when Paul's talking to the Corinthians,

[00:27:29] 1 Corinthians 10,

[00:27:30] it's just a bread which we break.

[00:27:32] Is it not?

[00:27:33] A sharing in the body of Christ?

[00:27:36] And we're a communion in koinonia of the body of Christ.

[00:27:40] There's a good form of that question,

[00:27:43] isn't it?

[00:27:44] Duh.

[00:27:45] Everybody knows.

[00:27:46] But Paul,

[00:27:48] there are raging debates by Theobros on Twitter about this.

[00:27:52] Nobody knows that anymore.

[00:27:54] We're all moderns now.

[00:27:56] Sign and substance have been separated,

[00:27:58] and nobody is particular.

[00:28:00] I mean,

[00:28:00] some people,

[00:28:01] Roman Catholics and Lutherans think,

[00:28:02] yes,

[00:28:03] it is the body.

[00:28:04] And then there are Baptists who think it's not.

[00:28:07] And then there are Presbyterians and some Anglicans that say,

[00:28:11] well,

[00:28:11] it sort of is in a kind of way.

[00:28:14] Maybe it's the power of his body or the influence of his body,

[00:28:17] or it's a sign of his body,

[00:28:18] or he's spiritually present,

[00:28:20] or it's,

[00:28:22] I think it was Flannery O'Connor,

[00:28:24] and was sitting in a dinner party,

[00:28:26] she says,

[00:28:27] and one of the guests

[00:28:29] was of the,

[00:28:30] gave his opinion when they were talking about the Eucharist.

[00:28:33] He said,

[00:28:33] it must be the Holy Ghost,

[00:28:35] because he's the most portable member of the Trinity.

[00:28:38] Um,

[00:28:40] and of course,

[00:28:41] and somebody else says,

[00:28:43] it's just a symbol.

[00:28:44] Then O'Connor immediately replies with her famous line,

[00:28:48] well,

[00:28:48] if it's just a symbol,

[00:28:49] to hell with it.

[00:28:50] Um,

[00:28:51] I need Jesus.

[00:28:52] I need to receive Jesus in the Eucharist.

[00:28:56] Um,

[00:28:56] I don't need to have,

[00:28:58] as I call them,

[00:29:00] edible flashcards.

[00:29:01] And I can think about Jesus by reading my Bible.

[00:29:04] There needs to be something else going on,

[00:29:06] um,

[00:29:07] in the actual celebration of the meal.

[00:29:11] Um,

[00:29:11] and,

[00:29:12] for Paul,

[00:29:13] and for the Jews,

[00:29:15] it wasn't a question.

[00:29:16] Is it not?

[00:29:17] A participation in the body of Christ?

[00:29:19] Well,

[00:29:19] of course it is.

[00:29:19] That's the form of that question.

[00:29:21] It's a,

[00:29:21] it's an uki,

[00:29:23] question,

[00:29:24] in Latin,

[00:29:25] it would be a none,

[00:29:25] a question,

[00:29:26] isn't it?

[00:29:27] Um,

[00:29:28] to,

[00:29:29] to which we are expected to say,

[00:29:30] yes,

[00:29:31] of course.

[00:29:32] Uh,

[00:29:32] now what follows?

[00:29:33] Uh,

[00:29:34] in other words,

[00:29:35] Paul,

[00:29:36] and maybe we should look at that passage too.

[00:29:38] Let me know if you want to do that.

[00:29:40] Yeah,

[00:29:40] let's go there.

[00:29:41] Okay.

[00:29:41] So first,

[00:29:42] first Corinthians 10,

[00:29:44] um,

[00:29:45] you know,

[00:29:46] Paul was dealing with the Corinthian church that is messed up beyond any church I've ever

[00:29:51] heard of.

[00:29:52] Um,

[00:29:53] and I've been in some,

[00:29:54] some churches that had issues.

[00:29:55] You've probably been in some churches that had issues,

[00:29:58] but you never had issues like this.

[00:29:59] The rich have their own Eucharist and they exclude the poor.

[00:30:03] And one guy has his father's wife.

[00:30:06] Um,

[00:30:06] and,

[00:30:07] and it's all kinds of abuses are going on in Corinth.

[00:30:10] And,

[00:30:10] and,

[00:30:11] and,

[00:30:11] it seems that the Corinthians,

[00:30:14] they were sort of patting themselves on the back and assuming nothing,

[00:30:18] no judgment's going to come down on me for my wickedness,

[00:30:21] my injustice toward the poor,

[00:30:23] my sexual immorality.

[00:30:24] Um,

[00:30:25] because I've been baptized and I have the supper.

[00:30:29] That,

[00:30:30] that seems to be their reasoning.

[00:30:31] And that's what Paul addresses.

[00:30:34] And I'm just,

[00:30:35] I'm not trying to flex or show off here,

[00:30:37] but let's just read the Greek.

[00:30:39] Uh,

[00:30:39] I don't want you to be ignorant brothers that all our fathers were under the

[00:30:44] cloud and they all passed through the sea and they all were baptized into

[00:30:49] Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

[00:30:50] And they all ate the same spiritual food,

[00:30:55] pneumaticon,

[00:30:56] broma,

[00:30:58] spiritual food.

[00:31:00] Uh,

[00:31:01] and they all drank the same spiritual drink,

[00:31:05] pneumaticon,

[00:31:06] broma,

[00:31:06] for they drank,

[00:31:08] uh,

[00:31:09] from the spiritual rock that was,

[00:31:11] that followed,

[00:31:12] uh,

[00:31:12] followed them.

[00:31:13] And the rock was the Messiah.

[00:31:17] Whoa.

[00:31:18] So,

[00:31:19] that of course,

[00:31:20] we could talk about that another time,

[00:31:22] perhaps.

[00:31:22] What does he mean?

[00:31:23] The rock was Christ.

[00:31:25] Um,

[00:31:26] it,

[00:31:26] he seems to be arguing Israel when they came out of Egypt and they wandering in

[00:31:31] the wilderness,

[00:31:31] they had real sacramental communion with the Messiah.

[00:31:37] The pre-incarnate Christ was the one who led them out of Egypt.

[00:31:41] And it doesn't get more real than what Israel had.

[00:31:46] And no impressive miracles like Moses bringing water out of a rock.

[00:31:50] There was manna falling from the sky.

[00:31:52] Uh,

[00:31:52] these people clearly had been saved and they,

[00:31:57] um,

[00:31:57] had real communion with,

[00:31:59] with God in Christ.

[00:32:01] Okay.

[00:32:02] So then what?

[00:32:04] But,

[00:32:05] but,

[00:32:06] not with most of them was God well pleased.

[00:32:11] Uh-oh.

[00:32:14] For they were scattered.

[00:32:16] Their bodies were scattered.

[00:32:18] They were strung in the wilderness.

[00:32:21] They died.

[00:32:22] Snake bites.

[00:32:24] All kinds of wrath from God hitting them because of their idolatry and their wickedness.

[00:32:30] And these things happened as two boy haemon,

[00:32:34] types of us.

[00:32:36] Um,

[00:32:37] and the term two boss can refer to the impression of a signet ring in wax.

[00:32:42] So that there's an exact correspondence between the signet ring and,

[00:32:48] um,

[00:32:48] the impression that it leaves.

[00:32:50] And that's what Paul is saying here.

[00:32:52] There's an exact correspondence between you Corinthians,

[00:32:56] and the rest of us Christians in the first century,

[00:33:00] and Israel when it came out of Egypt.

[00:33:02] Um,

[00:33:04] you,

[00:33:05] we don't have better communion with Christ than they did.

[00:33:10] Theirs was impressive too.

[00:33:12] They,

[00:33:12] they really ate spiritual food and drank spiritual drink.

[00:33:16] Um,

[00:33:17] so these things happened as two boy types of us.

[00:33:21] Um,

[00:33:21] so to the end that,

[00:33:23] or so that we,

[00:33:24] um,

[00:33:24] might lust after evil things as they lusted and desired.

[00:33:29] Um,

[00:33:30] nor that,

[00:33:31] and that we might not become,

[00:33:33] uh,

[00:33:35] worshipers of idols,

[00:33:37] um,

[00:33:37] as some of them,

[00:33:39] uh,

[00:33:39] as it is written,

[00:33:40] the people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play or to mock.

[00:33:45] Um,

[00:33:45] nor let us commit sexual immorality as some of them committed sexual immorality.

[00:33:50] It's just one word in Greek.

[00:33:52] Pornow.

[00:33:53] Um,

[00:33:55] and they,

[00:33:55] they're fell in one day.

[00:33:57] Um,

[00:33:57] um,

[00:33:59] 23,000,

[00:34:00] uh,

[00:34:02] nor let us tempt Christ as some of them tested or tempted.

[00:34:07] Hey,

[00:34:07] lots of the word to temp,

[00:34:09] um,

[00:34:10] and we're destroyed by serpents.

[00:34:12] Nor,

[00:34:13] and do not grumble.

[00:34:15] Don't be grumbling.

[00:34:16] It's a wonderful Greek verb.

[00:34:17] It's for to grumble.

[00:34:18] Gongu.

[00:34:19] So,

[00:34:20] sounds absolutely horrible.

[00:34:21] Um,

[00:34:23] um,

[00:34:23] don't grumble,

[00:34:24] uh,

[00:34:24] as some of them grumbled.

[00:34:26] Gongu.

[00:34:27] Son.

[00:34:27] And they were destroyed by the destroyer.

[00:34:30] And these things happened to be close.

[00:34:33] They happened in a typological way.

[00:34:35] They happened in a way corresponding to,

[00:34:38] uh,

[00:34:39] it happened to them in a to be close way,

[00:34:42] but that it was written down.

[00:34:43] These things were written down for our admonition upon whom the ends of the ages have come,

[00:34:49] have encountered us.

[00:34:51] As a result,

[00:34:52] the one who wrong way supposes that he stands,

[00:34:55] let him watch out lest he fall.

[00:34:57] So,

[00:34:59] Paul's point here is,

[00:35:01] yeah,

[00:35:02] he's not denying that you have real communion with Christ,

[00:35:08] that you're really sharing in Christ when you have the sacraments.

[00:35:13] Everybody is assuming that,

[00:35:15] both Paul and his Corinthian interlocutors.

[00:35:17] What Paul is saying here is,

[00:35:21] the communion that you have,

[00:35:23] well,

[00:35:23] Israel of old had it too,

[00:35:25] and it didn't save them when they decided to be wicked and do idolatry and sexual immorality.

[00:35:32] So,

[00:35:32] don't think that you're going to escape if you do those things just because you have sacraments.

[00:35:38] So,

[00:35:40] sharing in Christ or the reality of the efficacy of the sacraments is the common coin of both Paul and his interlocutors.

[00:35:47] It's not an issue.

[00:35:48] He's arguing from that to prove other things.

[00:35:50] Right.

[00:35:51] So,

[00:35:51] there's that,

[00:35:51] you can kind of see the,

[00:35:53] as they say,

[00:35:53] the other side of the telephone conversation with Paul.

[00:35:57] They're,

[00:35:58] they're both agreeing that Israel,

[00:36:02] they had a genuine fellowship with Christ in some sense.

[00:36:07] The issue is that just because they did that,

[00:36:08] they still sin in a bunch of ways and God killed a bunch of them in the desert,

[00:36:12] which actually kind of now,

[00:36:13] now actually kind of illuminates when Paul says that sort of mystifying thing where some of you have fallen sick and even died yourselves.

[00:36:19] Yeah.

[00:36:20] And making that parallel as well.

[00:36:23] And maybe we can get down that trail in a little bit.

[00:36:25] But,

[00:36:25] so that,

[00:36:26] that's an interesting parallel here.

[00:36:28] I'm just curious that Paul is talking about perhaps a meal and then the weekly Eucharist or however often they're taking it.

[00:36:37] Um,

[00:36:38] how do you get from,

[00:36:39] it's the fulfillment of a Passover meal.

[00:36:42] So they're just practicing Passover with some extra stuff.

[00:36:45] Uh,

[00:36:47] and then now are they,

[00:36:50] are they doing that in addition to,

[00:36:53] so,

[00:36:53] cause oftentimes you hear the Lord's supper is the fulfillment of Passover,

[00:36:58] meaning you don't do Passover anymore.

[00:36:59] You do the Lord's supper instead.

[00:37:02] And it seems like maybe the earliest Christians,

[00:37:05] though they still saw some correspondence and maybe fulfillment,

[00:37:08] they didn't replace one practice with the other.

[00:37:12] Is that a fair assessment?

[00:37:13] Yeah,

[00:37:14] that's a,

[00:37:15] that's an interesting question.

[00:37:16] Um,

[00:37:17] I think one of the things we need to recognize is that later Eucharist that the church does on a weekly or even more than weekly basis.

[00:37:28] Uh,

[00:37:29] yeah,

[00:37:29] they're using bread and they're using wine,

[00:37:31] but they're not Passover meals.

[00:37:35] Um,

[00:37:36] they're not as involved.

[00:37:37] It's not as long,

[00:37:38] uh,

[00:37:40] a Seder liturgy,

[00:37:41] um,

[00:37:42] involved with them.

[00:37:43] Uh,

[00:37:44] and yet the mere eating of this bread and pointing back to Jesus's institution of it would,

[00:37:52] it makes there be some continuity between,

[00:37:55] uh,

[00:37:56] what Jesus was doing at that last supper,

[00:37:58] which was a Passover meal and what Christians are doing thereafter in the Eucharist,

[00:38:02] which isn't necessarily a Passover meal.

[00:38:04] Um,

[00:38:06] that,

[00:38:06] that said,

[00:38:07] I do think that there's no good biblical objection to Jewish Christians continuing to observe Passover.

[00:38:13] It's pretty clear.

[00:38:14] Paul did.

[00:38:15] He wanted to be back in Jerusalem in time for Passover.

[00:38:19] Um,

[00:38:20] so I think it's probably likely that Peter,

[00:38:23] Peter also,

[00:38:24] remember Herod throws him in prison during Passover in the book of Acts and Christians are gathered together and are praying for his release.

[00:38:33] And they're probably mostly Jewish.

[00:38:35] Um,

[00:38:36] I think it's very likely that the earliest Jewish Christians continue to celebrate Passover.

[00:38:42] Um,

[00:38:43] and would have had,

[00:38:45] you know,

[00:38:45] much as much to the Messianic Jews do to this day.

[00:38:48] They,

[00:38:49] they,

[00:38:49] they alter their Passover by,

[00:38:52] um,

[00:38:53] embedding the Eucharist within it.

[00:38:55] Um,

[00:38:56] and I don't necessarily have any problem with that.

[00:38:59] Um,

[00:39:01] but,

[00:39:01] uh,

[00:39:02] it is clear that it started being done more,

[00:39:04] more frequently than just once a week.

[00:39:07] Um,

[00:39:08] some scholars,

[00:39:09] uh,

[00:39:11] I think for instance of Oscar Coleman,

[00:39:14] and here I'm,

[00:39:15] I'm indebted to Alistair Roberts for turning me on to Coleman's,

[00:39:18] look,

[00:39:18] Coleman argues that,

[00:39:20] well,

[00:39:20] it's the Christian Eucharist isn't just from the last supper.

[00:39:26] It's also from other meals that Jesus had.

[00:39:30] For instance,

[00:39:31] the meal with the disciples,

[00:39:32] two disciples on the,

[00:39:33] on the road to Emmaus in 24.

[00:39:35] Uh,

[00:39:37] that that's not a Passover meal,

[00:39:38] but they recognized him in the breaking of the bread.

[00:39:42] And I don't think that means that Jesus had some special flick of the wrist.

[00:39:48] Oh,

[00:39:48] that's him.

[00:39:49] No,

[00:39:49] I think it's more that,

[00:39:51] um,

[00:39:52] in sharing bread with them,

[00:39:54] um,

[00:39:56] he pretty clearly reminded them,

[00:39:58] not even verbally.

[00:39:59] They just,

[00:40:00] oh,

[00:40:00] two and two get put together.

[00:40:02] And they,

[00:40:02] they recognize who he is.

[00:40:04] So I think there's lots of meals.

[00:40:06] And then Jesus's ministry involved sort of a traveling feast,

[00:40:11] um,

[00:40:12] eating in the houses of Pharisees,

[00:40:15] eating with tax collectors and sinners,

[00:40:17] eating in Zacchaeus's house,

[00:40:19] uh,

[00:40:20] eating in the house of Simon's mother-in-law.

[00:40:23] Um,

[00:40:23] poor woman got healed of a fever and immediately starts waiting on Jesus and his disciples.

[00:40:29] Um,

[00:40:30] so,

[00:40:30] you know,

[00:40:30] there's a lot of,

[00:40:31] there's a lot of meals.

[00:40:32] I think it's likely that Jesus is the meal that he has with him at Passover.

[00:40:37] Um,

[00:40:39] probably not the first time he's celebrated Passover with them.

[00:40:42] and that would tend to tinge all other meals that he celebrates with,

[00:40:47] enjoys with his disciples,

[00:40:49] and especially the ones that happen after he's raised from the dead.

[00:40:52] So I think from that,

[00:40:54] it's pretty easy to extend the Passover-ish meaning beyond the particular Passover day.

[00:41:03] Uh,

[00:41:05] particularly when we recognize that Jesus is using the Passover to say,

[00:41:09] I'm the Messiah,

[00:41:10] to identify himself with the,

[00:41:14] the figure that everybody had been waiting for and hoping for.

[00:41:17] Um,

[00:41:18] and in a very,

[00:41:19] it's,

[00:41:19] I think,

[00:41:20] I gave a talk for the Davenant Institute when I was teaching for them,

[00:41:23] uh,

[00:41:24] about Jesus's indirect communication,

[00:41:28] especially in the synoptic gospels.

[00:41:30] He,

[00:41:30] he never says,

[00:41:32] yep,

[00:41:33] I'm the Messiah.

[00:41:34] Even,

[00:41:35] even when he's on trial,

[00:41:36] yeah,

[00:41:37] put you under oath by,

[00:41:39] um,

[00:41:41] the,

[00:41:41] the blessed one.

[00:41:42] Tell us,

[00:41:43] are you the Christ?

[00:41:44] Are you the son of the,

[00:41:45] the blessed one?

[00:41:47] And Jesus's answer to the Sanhedrin is,

[00:41:50] you have said it.

[00:41:52] Likewise,

[00:41:53] the Pilate,

[00:41:53] are you the king of the Jews?

[00:41:55] His answer to Pilate is,

[00:41:56] you have said it.

[00:41:57] Which isn't,

[00:41:58] it isn't a yes.

[00:42:00] It's certainly not a no.

[00:42:02] It's not a denial.

[00:42:04] It's a non-denial.

[00:42:05] It came out of your mouth.

[00:42:06] I didn't make this claim.

[00:42:09] And in John's gospel,

[00:42:11] if I testify about myself,

[00:42:12] my testimony is not true.

[00:42:14] There is one who testifies.

[00:42:15] The father,

[00:42:16] the spirit,

[00:42:17] the works that I'm doing.

[00:42:19] Um,

[00:42:20] they clearly show that I'm the Messiah.

[00:42:22] I don't need to walk around with a sandwich board on advertising myself.

[00:42:27] Um,

[00:42:28] because my Messiahship is not something that I grabbed for myself.

[00:42:33] It was given to me by the father.

[00:42:35] He testifies about it.

[00:42:36] So Jesus is very indirect.

[00:42:39] Um,

[00:42:39] he's very careful about when he reveals his messianic status.

[00:42:44] Uh,

[00:42:45] that's partly why he so often warns people not to tell anybody after he does a miracle or heals them.

[00:42:52] Um,

[00:42:53] they don't necessarily obey him,

[00:42:55] but,

[00:42:56] um,

[00:42:58] or,

[00:42:58] that first miracle in John,

[00:43:00] and his mother comes to him at the wedding at Canaan and says,

[00:43:03] they have no more bread.

[00:43:05] And his response is,

[00:43:09] literally,

[00:43:11] what to me and to you,

[00:43:12] woman,

[00:43:12] which,

[00:43:12] if you look at the other instances of that phrase in the Septuagint,

[00:43:16] the Old Testament,

[00:43:17] it's,

[00:43:18] it's Hebrew.

[00:43:19] Uh,

[00:43:21] how's it go?

[00:43:23] Va,

[00:43:24] va,

[00:43:25] li,

[00:43:26] so ma,

[00:43:27] li,

[00:43:27] valak.

[00:43:28] Yeah.

[00:43:28] Ma,

[00:43:28] li,

[00:43:29] what to me and to you?

[00:43:31] Um,

[00:43:32] and it's a complaint.

[00:43:33] Like,

[00:43:34] why are you causing trouble for me?

[00:43:36] Um,

[00:43:36] what do you have against me?

[00:43:38] That,

[00:43:38] that's what it means in Old Testament narratives.

[00:43:41] Um,

[00:43:42] yeah,

[00:43:43] Jesus is pretty clearly concerned.

[00:43:46] Mom,

[00:43:47] you want me to do a miracle right now at this wedding?

[00:43:50] Well,

[00:43:50] but then we're,

[00:43:51] we'll get out and I'll get in trouble.

[00:43:52] Um,

[00:43:53] my hour has not yet come.

[00:43:55] Well,

[00:43:55] when does his hour come?

[00:43:57] When he rides into Jerusalem on a donkey in a way that no Jew would miss.

[00:44:02] Everybody would say,

[00:44:03] Oh,

[00:44:03] that's Zechariah nine.

[00:44:05] I see the Messiah is arriving.

[00:44:07] That's a claim to be the Messiah.

[00:44:09] It's very blatant.

[00:44:11] Um,

[00:44:12] and of course,

[00:44:14] once he does that,

[00:44:15] there's no turning back.

[00:44:16] Um,

[00:44:17] that road leads to the cross.

[00:44:19] So in John two,

[00:44:21] he still got,

[00:44:23] you know,

[00:44:23] probably roughly two years of miracles and healings and teaching and parables to tell.

[00:44:29] But when the hour comes,

[00:44:31] then he,

[00:44:32] he goes.

[00:44:34] So in my answer,

[00:44:36] well,

[00:44:36] yeah,

[00:44:36] long winded answer to how did it become weekly?

[00:44:40] Yeah.

[00:44:40] Yeah.

[00:44:41] Yeah.

[00:44:41] It seems like there's more than just the one meal.

[00:44:45] There's the larger context of Jesus' ministry,

[00:44:47] all the other meals too.

[00:44:49] And so it seems like the upper room thing,

[00:44:51] that's a Passover meal he's conducting,

[00:44:53] but he's taking the various meals that they've had.

[00:44:58] And he's,

[00:44:58] and he's under,

[00:44:59] he's using the symbology of the Passover to point to something about himself indirectly.

[00:45:04] Yeah.

[00:45:05] That they get,

[00:45:06] they understand.

[00:45:07] And then later on,

[00:45:09] when we get to,

[00:45:09] you know,

[00:45:10] post resurrection,

[00:45:11] the church in Corinth,

[00:45:12] they've taken that,

[00:45:14] that,

[00:45:15] that concept and made it into a practice that got,

[00:45:18] so in other words,

[00:45:19] it seems like the upper room isn't necessarily,

[00:45:20] strictly speaking,

[00:45:21] Jesus being like,

[00:45:22] I want you to do this weekly ritual.

[00:45:25] It's more so that he's supplying the symbolic language to which it became a ritual that drew upon what he was talking about in the upper room.

[00:45:34] Is that,

[00:45:34] is that a fair way to?

[00:45:35] Yeah,

[00:45:35] I think that's fair.

[00:45:39] I'm reminded of a very powerful statement by David Darby,

[00:45:44] that when I was researching this book,

[00:45:46] this really hit me.

[00:45:47] He said,

[00:45:48] Jesus could not,

[00:45:49] this is off the top of my head,

[00:45:51] so I'm not going to get the wording exactly right,

[00:45:53] but Jesus could not have set up both the association of the bread with the Messiah and the identification with himself.

[00:46:07] One of those two things needed to be pre-existing.

[00:46:10] Either I'm this bread,

[00:46:12] and now this bread's the Messiah.

[00:46:14] That would work.

[00:46:16] That's not what he does.

[00:46:17] Or this bread's the Messiah.

[00:46:19] Everybody out there on this table knows that.

[00:46:21] Now,

[00:46:22] it's me.

[00:46:24] That's,

[00:46:25] it's just,

[00:46:25] and he,

[00:46:26] Darby adds the phrase,

[00:46:28] that's just not how rituals work.

[00:46:30] You can't sit down,

[00:46:31] back to me and my Halloween candy.

[00:46:34] I,

[00:46:34] I can't set up a,

[00:46:37] a ritual where,

[00:46:39] I don't know,

[00:46:40] you share in the spirit of Calvinism by eating Reese's peanut butter cups.

[00:46:45] I would have to write a treatise and explain everything to you,

[00:46:49] because there's no pre-existent associations.

[00:46:52] There's no meaning to it.

[00:46:54] But,

[00:46:55] of course,

[00:46:55] the Passover,

[00:46:57] man,

[00:46:57] it's hard to think of any meaning,

[00:46:59] more meaningful event in the Jewish year.

[00:47:03] When are Jews most tuned in to the arc of their history?

[00:47:08] When are they most expecting what God is going to do for them,

[00:47:11] and celebrating what God has done for them?

[00:47:14] Like,

[00:47:14] what other day of the year would be better for Jesus to introduce himself as the Messiah,

[00:47:22] than one that really is full of meaning and expectation,

[00:47:30] all scripted out of Israel's history,

[00:47:34] Israel's story.

[00:47:35] So he,

[00:47:36] that I think is a really key insight.

[00:47:38] We need to understand that Jesus did not replace Israel's story.

[00:47:45] He showed his disciples at the best moment,

[00:47:49] when they were most tuned into that story,

[00:47:51] that he is the fulfillment and culmination of it.

[00:47:56] There's no other day on the Jewish year when he could have done that so effectively.

[00:48:00] And that's what makes,

[00:48:03] and I talk in the book about,

[00:48:05] de-Pascalization.

[00:48:08] The idea that the Lord's Supper has nothing to do with the Passover now,

[00:48:13] or even that the Eucharist has nothing to do with Israel.

[00:48:16] This is an early mistake.

[00:48:20] You know,

[00:48:20] the idea that on that day of the year,

[00:48:24] Jesus replaced Passover with the Eucharist.

[00:48:28] That's not possible.

[00:48:29] And if you're going to do that move,

[00:48:31] you better do it at a different time,

[00:48:33] not in the middle of a Passover Seder,

[00:48:34] where everybody's minds are on Israel's story.

[00:48:38] And I'm afraid this move happens pretty early in the church.

[00:48:42] Even in Melito Sardis himself,

[00:48:44] whom I just said was probably a Jewish Christian,

[00:48:49] in Lydia,

[00:48:50] in Asia Minor,

[00:48:52] in the second century,

[00:48:54] and that his Peripasca is,

[00:48:56] in many ways,

[00:48:57] a Christian Passover.

[00:48:58] Listen to what he says here.

[00:49:00] I'm going to read a little bit from Melito's Peripasca.

[00:49:04] He has,

[00:49:06] maybe of all the early church fathers,

[00:49:08] the fullest explanation of what he thinks typology involves.

[00:49:15] When we're reading the Bible,

[00:49:17] and we see that,

[00:49:19] oh,

[00:49:19] Samson or David corresponds to Jesus,

[00:49:22] or when we talk about Jesus being the fulfillment of the law,

[00:49:25] what do we mean?

[00:49:29] Well,

[00:49:29] here's what Melito says.

[00:49:31] Beloved,

[00:49:32] no speech or event takes place without a pattern or design.

[00:49:36] Every event and speech involves a pattern,

[00:49:38] that which is spoken,

[00:49:40] a pattern,

[00:49:40] and that which happens,

[00:49:41] a prefiguration,

[00:49:42] in order that as the event is disclosed,

[00:49:45] do the prefiguration,

[00:49:46] so also the speech may be brought to expression through its outline.

[00:49:50] The word for outline is toupos,

[00:49:52] in Greek,

[00:49:53] same signet ring impression.

[00:49:56] It can mean a summary sometimes.

[00:49:58] Without the model,

[00:49:59] here's the key,

[00:50:00] without the model,

[00:50:01] no work of art arises.

[00:50:03] Is not that which is to come into existence,

[00:50:06] seen through the model,

[00:50:08] which typifies it?

[00:50:09] For this reason,

[00:50:11] a pattern of that which is to be made,

[00:50:13] either out of wax,

[00:50:14] or out of clay,

[00:50:14] or out of wood,

[00:50:16] in order that the smallness of the model,

[00:50:18] destined to be destroyed,

[00:50:20] might be seen,

[00:50:21] that thing,

[00:50:22] sorry,

[00:50:23] in order that by the smallness,

[00:50:25] of the model,

[00:50:27] there might be seen,

[00:50:28] that thing which is to arise from it,

[00:50:30] higher than it in size,

[00:50:31] and mightier than it in power,

[00:50:33] and more beautiful in appearance,

[00:50:34] and more elaborate in the ornamentation.

[00:50:37] And here's what it then says.

[00:50:38] So whenever the thing arises for which the model was made,

[00:50:43] then that which carried the image of that future thing is destroyed,

[00:50:48] as no longer of use,

[00:50:50] since it has transmitted its resemblance to that which is by nature true.

[00:50:55] Therefore,

[00:50:55] that which was once valuable is now without value,

[00:50:59] because that which is truly valuable has appeared.

[00:51:03] And then he goes on to explain what sorts of types,

[00:51:07] he thinks,

[00:51:08] have now become not valuable,

[00:51:10] because of the arrival of the fulfillment.

[00:51:14] He says,

[00:51:15] therefore,

[00:51:15] if it was like this with models of perishable objects,

[00:51:18] so indeed will it also be with those of imperishable objects.

[00:51:22] The people,

[00:51:23] meaning the people of Israel,

[00:51:25] therefore,

[00:51:26] became the model for the church,

[00:51:28] and the law was a parabolical sketch of the gospel.

[00:51:33] But the gospel became the explanation of the law and its fulfillment,

[00:51:36] while the church became the storehouse of truth.

[00:51:39] Therefore,

[00:51:40] the type had value prior to its realization,

[00:51:43] and the parable was wonderful before its interpretation.

[00:51:46] This is to say that the people of Israel had value before the church came on the scene,

[00:51:51] and the law was wonderful before the gospel was brought to light.

[00:51:55] I skipped out a little bit now.

[00:51:56] For at one time,

[00:51:58] the sacrifice of the sheep was valuable,

[00:52:00] but now it is without value,

[00:52:02] because of the life of the Lord.

[00:52:03] The death of the sheep once was valuable,

[00:52:05] but now it is without value,

[00:52:07] because of the salvation of the Lord.

[00:52:09] The blood of the sheep once was valuable,

[00:52:11] but now it is without value,

[00:52:12] because of the spirit of the Lord.

[00:52:14] The silent lamb once was valuable,

[00:52:16] but now it has no value,

[00:52:18] because of the blameless son.

[00:52:19] The temple here below once was valuable,

[00:52:22] but now it is without value,

[00:52:23] because of the Christ from above.

[00:52:25] The Jerusalem here below once had value, but now it is without value because of the Jerusalem from above.

[00:52:32] I could go on, but you get the picture.

[00:52:34] It's very much what a lot of people would think.

[00:52:38] Have you had a talk with Gerald McDermott?

[00:52:41] Yeah.

[00:52:42] Yeah.

[00:52:42] So he would look at this and say, look, replacement theology.

[00:52:47] Right.

[00:52:47] That's what that is.

[00:52:50] You know, the logical outcome of this is there's no point in being a Jew if you're a Christian, which I think would get St. Paul rolling spinning in his grave if he heard that.

[00:53:02] The idea that you need to stop being Jewish, that nothing Jewish has any value once you're a Christian.

[00:53:09] I mean, compared to the gospel.

[00:53:12] Yeah.

[00:53:12] Paul says it's all scubala.

[00:53:14] You know, all the things that he was boasting about before his being a Benjamite and a Pharisee and the Hebrew of the Hebrews.

[00:53:21] But he doesn't ever suggest that.

[00:53:26] All this Jewish stuff is of no value anymore.

[00:53:30] That's a slander that is cast upon him by.

[00:53:36] His enemies, Judaizers and people from James.

[00:53:42] And when he arrives in Jerusalem, James says, people are saying that you're teaching people not to circumcise their children.

[00:53:49] But there's no point in being Jewish.

[00:53:51] And you would say.

[00:53:52] Show that it's false, Paul.

[00:53:54] Go do some Jewish stuff.

[00:53:55] And he does.

[00:53:56] And so you would say the difference, because he seems to be making a parallel between they used to do sacrifices.

[00:54:01] Now you shouldn't do sacrifices anymore.

[00:54:03] But that seems more explicit because of Hebrews.

[00:54:06] Yeah.

[00:54:06] And he's making a false kind of equivalence between that and then, you know, the other practices.

[00:54:13] What is the relation then between Israel and the church?

[00:54:16] Oh boy.

[00:54:17] It's another four hours.

[00:54:18] Yeah.

[00:54:19] It's a big topic.

[00:54:20] But, you know, if I could summarize in a single sentence, the relation of Israel to the church is the relation of a cultivated olive tree that had some branches cut off and other branches grafted in.

[00:54:37] And now it's grown for another 2,000 years.

[00:54:42] In other words, it's not a replacement.

[00:54:44] It doesn't say.

[00:54:45] Did you come up with that illustration?

[00:54:47] That sounds.

[00:54:48] Right.

[00:54:49] No, I mean, it's Romans 11.

[00:54:54] That image is the biblical image of the church's relation to Israel.

[00:55:00] And it's not a relation of replacement.

[00:55:02] It's not a relation of no value to Israel and that the church is supplanting it.

[00:55:09] We could talk another time maybe about Christian anti-Semitism and the huge problems with that.

[00:55:15] But, you know, in summary, in Romans 11, Paul's conclusion, what's the application once we realize that we're grafted into Israel's olive tree?

[00:55:27] Do not be haughty.

[00:55:30] Right?

[00:55:30] I mean, don't say, well, branches got broken off.

[00:55:35] I might get grafted in.

[00:55:37] I'm better than them.

[00:55:38] No.

[00:55:39] And God won't spare you either.

[00:55:41] And it's very much like 1 Corinthians 10.

[00:55:44] If that's the way you dealt with Israel of old, then he also will deal with you that way.

[00:55:49] Don't be arrogant.

[00:55:50] Don't have a pogrom.

[00:55:51] Don't have a Holocaust.

[00:55:55] Don't spread anti-Semitic propaganda.

[00:55:58] Have some gratitude that you've been grafted into this people's covenant.

[00:56:03] So I want to go back.

[00:56:05] And this is really, I think, kind of the heart of a lot of, at least my interest in this topic, is you have 1 Corinthians 11.

[00:56:13] You have that key word, the koinonia, the fellowship, the participation, however you want to translate.

[00:56:18] You know, there's something happening there.

[00:56:20] There's a fellowship.

[00:56:21] And I think a lot of Christians would be like, yes.

[00:56:24] But they would differ on how they parse that out.

[00:56:26] And then you have is in Mark 14.

[00:56:29] This is my body.

[00:56:30] Right?

[00:56:31] And Christians would disagree on that.

[00:56:34] And then there's a relationship of the is to the fellowship that's coming together.

[00:56:37] So it seems like for Mark 14, you're going the is.

[00:56:40] Let's not bring in the Aristotelian metaphysics, all that stuff just yet or at all.

[00:56:46] Let's just go for them.

[00:56:48] Jesus is saying, I'm the Messiah.

[00:56:50] By taking this symbol that you all know in the Passover and identifying myself with it.

[00:56:55] I'm not saying this has now become my presence or something like that.

[00:56:59] It's you're making a symbolic point about who you are.

[00:57:05] Let me back up here for a minute and get into this question of is, this word is.

[00:57:14] I mean, Bill Clinton famously under oath into Monica Lewinsky affairs.

[00:57:20] And that depends on what the meaning of is is.

[00:57:24] What is is.

[00:57:27] And you see.

[00:57:28] Oh, my goodness.

[00:57:29] You're doing a pretty good Bill Clinton impression there.

[00:57:34] But you'll find this argument.

[00:57:38] Especially in Catholic apologetics.

[00:57:41] Jesus says, this is my body.

[00:57:43] This Martin Luther writing.

[00:57:45] Hawk asked.

[00:57:47] Undermine it.

[00:57:48] In beer foam on the table at the Marbury Disputation.

[00:57:52] And.

[00:57:53] And.

[00:57:54] Uncle Lampadius is one of the.

[00:57:56] Swiss deputation.

[00:57:58] Accompanying Zwingli.

[00:57:59] He is the only guy at the table who knew Aramaic.

[00:58:03] And.

[00:58:04] And I'm sure he was having a fit at that point.

[00:58:07] Because.

[00:58:08] Although the Greek has.

[00:58:11] Two toe este.

[00:58:12] This is.

[00:58:14] It's got that este verb.

[00:58:16] There is no such verb in Aramaic.

[00:58:19] So.

[00:58:19] How do you do predication?

[00:58:22] You do it by juxtaposition.

[00:58:24] In Aramaic.

[00:58:25] There is.

[00:58:25] In other words.

[00:58:25] There's no verb to underline.

[00:58:28] If we were.

[00:58:29] If we think that Jesus was speaking.

[00:58:30] Aramaic.

[00:58:31] And likewise with Hebrew.

[00:58:33] It's entirely possible that there was no.

[00:58:36] Maybe.

[00:58:36] Maybe there was.

[00:58:37] Hayah.

[00:58:38] Maybe there was.

[00:58:39] This is.

[00:58:40] But.

[00:58:42] It would.

[00:58:43] Be perfectly.

[00:58:44] Yedigmatic.

[00:58:44] Not to have it.

[00:58:46] To just have.

[00:58:47] This.

[00:58:48] My body.

[00:58:50] Um.

[00:58:50] So.

[00:58:51] And then secondly.

[00:58:53] When.

[00:58:54] When we say.

[00:58:55] X is Y.

[00:58:58] Um.

[00:58:59] You must realize that.

[00:59:01] Metaphysical identity of substance.

[00:59:04] Is almost never what we mean.

[00:59:07] By this.

[00:59:08] Um.

[00:59:09] Um.

[00:59:10] And.

[00:59:11] It.

[00:59:11] It.

[00:59:12] It would be strange.

[00:59:14] And alien.

[00:59:15] To the context of a Passover meal.

[00:59:17] And it would require a whole lot of explanation.

[00:59:20] To.

[00:59:21] A bunch of Jews.

[00:59:22] That are sitting around eating a Passover meal.

[00:59:25] To shift their brains into metaphysical mode.

[00:59:28] And start thinking about.

[00:59:30] Um.

[00:59:30] Substances.

[00:59:31] Where.

[00:59:32] Is means is.

[00:59:34] Um.

[00:59:35] Especially if the word is wasn't used.

[00:59:38] Um.

[00:59:38] So.

[00:59:40] Let me back up though.

[00:59:42] I've.

[00:59:42] I've already.

[00:59:44] Averted to the fact that I don't.

[00:59:46] Think.

[00:59:46] We should treat the supper.

[00:59:48] As.

[00:59:48] Edible flashcards.

[00:59:50] Right.

[00:59:50] In other words.

[00:59:50] The point of it is not.

[00:59:52] To give us an opportunity.

[00:59:54] To think about Jesus more.

[00:59:55] There's plenty of other.

[00:59:56] Ways to do that.

[00:59:58] You can read the Bible.

[01:00:00] In many ways.

[01:00:01] Reading the Bible.

[01:00:02] Would be a better way.

[01:00:03] To just think about Jesus.

[01:00:06] Um.

[01:00:06] So.

[01:00:07] What then is.

[01:00:09] The point of.

[01:00:10] Having it as a meal.

[01:00:13] Um.

[01:00:13] And does that form.

[01:00:16] Uh.

[01:00:17] Also give us some.

[01:00:18] Insight into how Jews thought.

[01:00:20] The Passover worked.

[01:00:22] Because.

[01:00:23] In many ways.

[01:00:25] What Jesus is doing here.

[01:00:26] There is incredible similarity.

[01:00:28] To the institution of the Passover.

[01:00:30] This is a meal he has.

[01:00:32] With his disciples.

[01:00:33] And he's.

[01:00:33] It's pointing to.

[01:00:36] Events.

[01:00:37] That haven't happened yet.

[01:00:38] He's going to die.

[01:00:40] On a cross.

[01:00:41] And then they're going to.

[01:00:42] Repeat this meal.

[01:00:44] Right.

[01:00:44] Over and over again.

[01:00:45] After those events.

[01:00:46] It's exactly the same way.

[01:00:47] The Passover is instituted.

[01:00:49] Right.

[01:00:49] The Jews are told.

[01:00:51] On this night.

[01:00:52] You need to.

[01:00:53] Sacrifice a lamb.

[01:00:54] You need to.

[01:00:55] Eat with your.

[01:00:56] Your.

[01:00:57] Your.

[01:00:58] Loins girded.

[01:00:59] And everything packed.

[01:00:59] And be ready to go.

[01:01:01] Um.

[01:01:02] And then.

[01:01:02] You know.

[01:01:02] The angel of death.

[01:01:03] Will pass through the land.

[01:01:05] Um.

[01:01:06] And.

[01:01:07] Then you'll come out.

[01:01:09] And then.

[01:01:10] Ever after.

[01:01:11] You're supposed to celebrate.

[01:01:12] This Passover meal.

[01:01:14] Um.

[01:01:15] After you've emerged.

[01:01:16] From the land.

[01:01:17] So.

[01:01:17] There's this.

[01:01:18] Anticipatory institution.

[01:01:20] There's the.

[01:01:20] Historical saving events.

[01:01:22] That it connects to.

[01:01:23] And then there's the.

[01:01:24] Commemorative meals.

[01:01:25] Thereafter.

[01:01:26] Um.

[01:01:27] And.

[01:01:29] Uh.

[01:01:30] We get.

[01:01:31] Rabban Gamaliel.

[01:01:32] In the Passover Haggadah.

[01:01:34] Uh.

[01:01:35] And there's debate about which Gamaliel we're talking about.

[01:01:37] So this is Gamaliel the first and Gamaliel the second.

[01:01:40] Gamaliel.

[01:01:40] The older Gamaliel is Paul's teacher.

[01:01:43] Um.

[01:01:43] From the book of Acts.

[01:01:44] Chapter five.

[01:01:45] And.

[01:01:46] The other one is.

[01:01:47] I think his grandson.

[01:01:49] Um.

[01:01:50] But he's also first century.

[01:01:52] Uh.

[01:01:53] So.

[01:01:53] Late first century.

[01:01:55] Rabbi.

[01:01:55] So it doesn't much matter to me which Gamaliel it is.

[01:01:58] But.

[01:01:59] The quotation in the Passover Haggadah is.

[01:02:02] In every generation.

[01:02:04] Everyone who partakes of the Passover.

[01:02:06] Is duty bound to regard himself.

[01:02:09] As though he personally had passed out of Egypt.

[01:02:12] So maybe you're a Jew.

[01:02:13] Born in Ukraine.

[01:02:15] Or Brooklyn.

[01:02:16] In the 20th century.

[01:02:18] And you've never been to Egypt in your life.

[01:02:21] Let alone has your foot ever touched the bottom of the Red Sea.

[01:02:25] Nonetheless.

[01:02:26] When you eat this meal.

[01:02:28] It's.

[01:02:29] You.

[01:02:30] Involved in those events.

[01:02:32] It puts you.

[01:02:34] In that story.

[01:02:35] It makes the things that happened.

[01:02:37] To Moses and the people following him.

[01:02:40] As though they happened to you.

[01:02:42] To Elu.

[01:02:43] As though.

[01:02:44] They happened to you.

[01:02:46] Um.

[01:02:47] And.

[01:02:47] We find Paul talking this way too.

[01:02:50] Uh.

[01:02:51] You know.

[01:02:53] Everyone.

[01:02:54] You should.

[01:02:55] You should.

[01:02:55] You should regard yourself as.

[01:02:56] Baptized into Christ's death.

[01:02:58] You should regard yourself as.

[01:03:00] Dead with Christ.

[01:03:02] Um.

[01:03:02] You should regard yourself.

[01:03:04] Not according to the flesh.

[01:03:05] You should regard yourself.

[01:03:07] As raised to new life with him.

[01:03:08] Paul using.

[01:03:09] Greek constructions.

[01:03:11] For these.

[01:03:12] Acts of.

[01:03:13] Regarding or considering.

[01:03:15] X to be Y.

[01:03:17] Um.

[01:03:17] Regarding yourself.

[01:03:18] As.

[01:03:19] Having.

[01:03:20] Been crucified with Christ.

[01:03:22] And raised with him.

[01:03:23] Well.

[01:03:23] That's how the Passover.

[01:03:25] Was conceived of.

[01:03:26] As working.

[01:03:27] You know.

[01:03:28] There's.

[01:03:28] There's even.

[01:03:28] When they're.

[01:03:29] First picking up the matzah.

[01:03:31] And explaining.

[01:03:31] In the Passover.

[01:03:32] It got out of this.

[01:03:33] This is the poor.

[01:03:34] Afflicted bread.

[01:03:35] That our forefathers ate.

[01:03:36] And some later rabbis.

[01:03:38] Wanted to change that.

[01:03:39] Statement.

[01:03:40] And say.

[01:03:40] This is like.

[01:03:42] The poor afflicted bread.

[01:03:43] That our forefathers ate.

[01:03:45] But they didn't change it.

[01:03:47] The text remains.

[01:03:48] This is.

[01:03:49] Oh.

[01:03:50] Is.

[01:03:51] The same bread.

[01:03:52] Really.

[01:03:53] Isn't it moldy by now?

[01:03:54] No.

[01:03:55] But there's this.

[01:03:55] This idea.

[01:03:56] That we are.

[01:03:58] Um.

[01:04:00] Re.

[01:04:01] Experiencing.

[01:04:03] Uh.

[01:04:03] That we are involved in.

[01:04:06] The events.

[01:04:07] That the ritual meal.

[01:04:08] Was connected with.

[01:04:10] It makes it real to us.

[01:04:12] And that.

[01:04:13] I think.

[01:04:15] That of course.

[01:04:16] Is what.

[01:04:16] Our catholic friends.

[01:04:17] Are so concerned with.

[01:04:18] Right.

[01:04:19] You're going to make it.

[01:04:20] Not real.

[01:04:21] You're going to make it.

[01:04:22] Just a figment of.

[01:04:22] Our imagination.

[01:04:23] So something we think about.

[01:04:24] A story that we tell.

[01:04:25] Something we remember.

[01:04:27] Something we ponder.

[01:04:28] But it isn't real.

[01:04:29] And that's what they're trying to vindicate.

[01:04:31] With.

[01:04:32] Their substance language.

[01:04:34] And I.

[01:04:35] I think we should respect that.

[01:04:36] That's a.

[01:04:36] That's a noble instinct.

[01:04:38] On their part.

[01:04:39] Because there's a lot of biblical language.

[01:04:41] That is.

[01:04:41] Urging us.

[01:04:43] To.

[01:04:43] Treat these things as real.

[01:04:45] And true of us.

[01:04:46] That we are in Christ.

[01:04:48] You should regard yourself.

[01:04:49] As in Christ.

[01:04:50] That means that you're.

[01:04:52] If you've been baptized into Christ.

[01:04:53] You've been baptized into his death.

[01:04:55] And.

[01:04:56] Of course that's baptism.

[01:04:57] Not the supper.

[01:04:57] But.

[01:04:58] The same thing applies.

[01:04:59] Right.

[01:04:59] The communion.

[01:05:01] The bread which we make.

[01:05:01] Is it.

[01:05:02] Is it not a koinonia?

[01:05:03] Is it not a sharing.

[01:05:04] In the body of Christ.

[01:05:05] Meaning the body that was crucified.

[01:05:08] So.

[01:05:09] You're participating.

[01:05:11] In.

[01:05:12] In that body.

[01:05:13] Now.

[01:05:13] I don't think most of us.

[01:05:15] In the 21st century.

[01:05:17] If we want to be persuaded.

[01:05:18] That something is really.

[01:05:20] The way to do that.

[01:05:22] Is not to sit people down.

[01:05:23] And talk about Aristotle with them.

[01:05:24] That's not going to help.

[01:05:26] But.

[01:05:27] We need to cultivate.

[01:05:31] A.

[01:05:33] An emphasis.

[01:05:35] On this participation.

[01:05:37] Aspect.

[01:05:38] Of the meal.

[01:05:40] That.

[01:05:40] In fact.

[01:05:42] Static presence.

[01:05:43] Is not.

[01:05:45] What.

[01:05:46] Paul.

[01:05:46] Or Jesus.

[01:05:47] Is after.

[01:05:50] You know.

[01:05:50] It.

[01:05:50] It wouldn't be particularly.

[01:05:53] Powerful.

[01:05:54] To have.

[01:05:56] A wafer.

[01:05:57] That turned into Jesus.

[01:05:59] And sat on a table.

[01:06:00] In front of us.

[01:06:00] Judas had Jesus present.

[01:06:02] At the table with him.

[01:06:04] It didn't help.

[01:06:05] Um.

[01:06:06] The disciples on the road.

[01:06:07] To Emmaus.

[01:06:08] They had Jesus in front of them.

[01:06:10] Present with them.

[01:06:12] But it's not until he breaks the bread with them.

[01:06:14] And their eyes are open.

[01:06:15] And they realize.

[01:06:17] The truth of the whole story.

[01:06:19] Which they weren't comprehending.

[01:06:21] And it's hilarious.

[01:06:23] In Luke 24.

[01:06:24] Um.

[01:06:26] Are you the only one.

[01:06:27] In Jerusalem.

[01:06:28] Who.

[01:06:29] Isn't aware.

[01:06:30] Of these things.

[01:06:31] And Jesus is.

[01:06:32] It's one of the funniest lines.

[01:06:33] He says in the Bible.

[01:06:34] What things?

[01:06:37] As though.

[01:06:38] I'm just imagining.

[01:06:39] The twinkle in his eye.

[01:06:40] When he says that.

[01:06:41] But.

[01:06:41] As Richard Hayes points out.

[01:06:43] Um.

[01:06:43] In his conversion of the imagination.

[01:06:46] Mary and Cleopas.

[01:06:47] The two disciples of the right to Emmaus.

[01:06:49] They have all the data.

[01:06:50] They know what happened.

[01:06:52] In the Passover week.

[01:06:54] Um.

[01:06:54] In the.

[01:06:54] In the crucifixion of Jesus.

[01:06:56] They.

[01:06:57] They even.

[01:06:58] Report to Jesus.

[01:06:59] Whom they don't recognize yet.

[01:07:00] That some of our women.

[01:07:01] Said.

[01:07:02] They astounded us.

[01:07:03] Because they said.

[01:07:03] That they went to the grave.

[01:07:04] And he wasn't there.

[01:07:05] Right.

[01:07:06] Um.

[01:07:06] So.

[01:07:07] They know the whole Old Testament.

[01:07:10] They know all the reasons why.

[01:07:12] We should be expecting a resurrection.

[01:07:14] Um.

[01:07:15] And.

[01:07:15] They've got all the facts.

[01:07:17] But they haven't put it together yet.

[01:07:18] It doesn't make any sense to them.

[01:07:20] And they've got.

[01:07:21] Jesus present with them.

[01:07:22] Jesus.

[01:07:23] It's not helping.

[01:07:25] And then.

[01:07:26] Their eyes are opened.

[01:07:28] And they put it all together.

[01:07:30] And what happens after that?

[01:07:33] Jesus leaves.

[01:07:35] He.

[01:07:36] He.

[01:07:37] He's hidden from them.

[01:07:38] And they went on their way rejoicing.

[01:07:40] Now they're happy.

[01:07:41] And they're blessed.

[01:07:42] Because now they make sense of the whole story.

[01:07:44] They grasp the narrative.

[01:07:47] And.

[01:07:47] And.

[01:07:48] I think they also realize.

[01:07:49] That they are sharers in it.

[01:07:51] Um.

[01:07:52] That Jesus is known to them in the breaking of bread.

[01:07:54] Which is.

[01:07:55] We'll talk more about that in a second.

[01:07:57] That's.

[01:07:58] Very deliberate.

[01:07:59] Because it's.

[01:08:00] It involves sharing.

[01:08:02] Um.

[01:08:03] And.

[01:08:03] At that point.

[01:08:04] They're filled with joy.

[01:08:06] Um.

[01:08:06] So.

[01:08:08] I think.

[01:08:09] We could multiply examples.

[01:08:11] There are other instances of the vision.

[01:08:12] Jesus appearing to people.

[01:08:14] And.

[01:08:14] The point is not to have him present.

[01:08:16] The point is.

[01:08:18] To be involved.

[01:08:19] And a sharer.

[01:08:19] In him.

[01:08:20] Um.

[01:08:22] And so.

[01:08:22] For me.

[01:08:24] Static presence isn't the point.

[01:08:26] Um.

[01:08:27] The idea that we're going to put.

[01:08:28] A wafer in a monstrance.

[01:08:30] And people are going to bow down to it.

[01:08:31] Or worship it.

[01:08:32] That's bizarre.

[01:08:34] And the early church didn't do it.

[01:08:36] Um.

[01:08:36] And.

[01:08:37] I mean.

[01:08:38] This is like a syllogism.

[01:08:39] We can run it one of two ways.

[01:08:41] Either modus ponens.

[01:08:42] Or modus torens.

[01:08:43] And I think.

[01:08:44] A lot of our high church friends.

[01:08:45] Will run it with a modus ponens.

[01:08:47] The Eucharist is Jesus' body.

[01:08:50] Therefore.

[01:08:50] We'll put the Eucharist.

[01:08:51] In a monstrance.

[01:08:52] And we worship it.

[01:08:53] And.

[01:08:55] I would say.

[01:08:57] Well.

[01:08:57] The early church didn't put it in a monstrance.

[01:09:00] And worship it.

[01:09:01] Therefore.

[01:09:02] Your identification.

[01:09:03] The Eucharist.

[01:09:03] Of Jesus' body.

[01:09:05] Not.

[01:09:07] The church.

[01:09:09] Not.

[01:09:10] The Eucharist.

[01:09:11] As a ritual celebration.

[01:09:13] Or a feast.

[01:09:14] Or a meal.

[01:09:15] But with.

[01:09:16] One particular element.

[01:09:18] Um.

[01:09:20] Maybe.

[01:09:21] Maybe we should doubt that.

[01:09:22] Maybe that's not.

[01:09:23] Actually.

[01:09:24] The syllogism.

[01:09:24] We should run.

[01:09:26] Um.

[01:09:27] Because.

[01:09:27] I would agree.

[01:09:29] If that.

[01:09:29] If that piece of wafer.

[01:09:31] Has turned into Jesus.

[01:09:32] Then we better be worshiping it.

[01:09:34] And the old church didn't.

[01:09:36] Um.

[01:09:36] So.

[01:09:36] Perhaps they didn't actually conceive.

[01:09:38] Of a transformation of the elements.

[01:09:41] But what they did.

[01:09:42] Very clearly hold.

[01:09:44] Uh.

[01:09:44] Is that we.

[01:09:45] Are really sharing.

[01:09:47] In what happened to Jesus.

[01:09:49] Um.

[01:09:50] That the Eucharist involves us in it.

[01:09:52] So.

[01:09:52] Presence is too weak.

[01:09:54] Involvement.

[01:09:55] Sharing in.

[01:09:56] Um.

[01:09:57] It needs to be.

[01:09:58] Narrative.

[01:09:59] And diachronic.

[01:10:00] It needs to be more like a movie.

[01:10:02] Than a snapshot.

[01:10:04] You know.

[01:10:05] To dial up the realism.

[01:10:06] You know.

[01:10:07] The Eucharist needs to be treated by us.

[01:10:10] As though.

[01:10:10] We were there.

[01:10:11] As though the nails were to ours.

[01:10:14] So.

[01:10:16] I guess there would be two questions with that.

[01:10:18] One.

[01:10:18] The koinoneal language of the fellowship.

[01:10:21] It does seem to imply some kind of presence.

[01:10:23] Are you saying that.

[01:10:24] Your view precludes presence.

[01:10:25] Or it.

[01:10:27] Adds.

[01:10:28] More to just.

[01:10:29] The fact that there is some kind of presence of Jesus.

[01:10:32] And.

[01:10:33] Yeah.

[01:10:35] Um.

[01:10:35] That's a good.

[01:10:36] It's a good point.

[01:10:37] And we can.

[01:10:38] Start.

[01:10:39] Doing metaphysics.

[01:10:40] I'm not opposed to that.

[01:10:42] But.

[01:10:42] What we need to recognize.

[01:10:44] Is that.

[01:10:44] The way the Bible.

[01:10:46] Speaks.

[01:10:47] Especially Paul.

[01:10:48] Speaks.

[01:10:49] Uh.

[01:10:50] About.

[01:10:50] The elements.

[01:10:53] He doesn't say the wine.

[01:10:55] He says the cup.

[01:10:57] But I'm not aware of any Christians.

[01:10:59] That think.

[01:11:00] The chalice.

[01:11:01] Is.

[01:11:02] Where the presence is.

[01:11:04] Right.

[01:11:04] Um.

[01:11:06] Um.

[01:11:07] Why does Paul.

[01:11:08] Refer to.

[01:11:09] The wine.

[01:11:11] By.

[01:11:13] Metonymy.

[01:11:13] Or synecdoche.

[01:11:14] By pointing to the cup.

[01:11:16] Instead of.

[01:11:17] Say wine.

[01:11:19] Um.

[01:11:19] Why does he say you cannot share the table of the Lord and the table of demons?

[01:11:25] What reference to the table is this?

[01:11:27] Well, tables are what we sit around.

[01:11:30] Cups are what we share, we pass around, perhaps, if it's a single cup.

[01:11:36] In other words, he's pointing not to the material substances as though they had become a locus of a presence,

[01:11:46] but he's pointing to the logistical means, the table and the cup, the breaking, etc., of the bread.

[01:11:59] He's pointing to the means by which a ritual meal is shared.

[01:12:05] This is, in other words, what is the Eucharist?

[01:12:08] It's not bread, it's not wine, as Peter Lightheart puts it.

[01:12:12] It's bread that is broken and shared by Jesus' people at his command.

[01:12:19] It's bread that is, I'm sorry, it's wine that is poured out and shared and drunk by Jesus' people at his command.

[01:12:28] So, I might be happy to talk about a presence of Christ in the Eucharistic celebration, in the ritual meal,

[01:12:36] but I'm not happy talking about talisman-like elements that we shrunk Jesus and put him in spatially or locally in a place inside a wafer or in wine.

[01:12:50] That's a really good point.

[01:12:51] I think the best Catholic theologians don't talk that way anyway.

[01:12:54] Yeah, no, that's a great point because oftentimes it's used to say, okay, there's something real.

[01:12:58] Usually to us non-baptists, we always just get slammed on this stuff, right?

[01:13:03] I mean, but it's like trying to explain, well, Paul seems to think that a table with demons is real.

[01:13:11] The demons are really present.

[01:13:13] But, you know, and therefore the corresponding cup with Jesus, Jesus is really present on this stuff.

[01:13:21] But that is a good point where it's like, okay, but the table isn't a demon table.

[01:13:26] Like, the demons have not become the table or anything like that.

[01:13:29] It's saying that the table is the means by which you have this sort of, I don't know, ritual demons or something like that.

[01:13:37] And the same would be with the Lord's Supper.

[01:13:39] I'm curious about the other word, regard.

[01:13:42] You mentioned that with baptism, one who's been baptized regards themselves as baptized in the death of Christ.

[01:13:48] And I understand the edible flashcards critique.

[01:13:52] I guess I'm just trying to figure out, you know, in my low church brain, you know, you got to help me.

[01:13:57] How do you, what does it mean to regard?

[01:14:00] Because that is a subjective idea.

[01:14:03] It's a subjective element here.

[01:14:04] And I guess just, I think that the average layperson's question is, okay, got it.

[01:14:09] What is actually happening?

[01:14:11] Like, when I go and take the Lord's Supper at my local church this Sunday, and I go in, what am I supposed to be thinking?

[01:14:19] What is that experience supposed to be like for me?

[01:14:23] Yeah.

[01:14:24] And how would you understand, how would you break down regard on a practical level?

[01:14:29] Um, so, let's be clear.

[01:14:33] When I say there's a subjective element here, I don't mean it's all in your head.

[01:14:39] Rather, I mean, there are some really important historical and spiritual realities.

[01:14:46] There's a, there's a Jesus who really died on a real Roman cross with real nails through his wrists.

[01:14:53] Um, and was really raised from the dead and invited Thomas to poke him.

[01:14:57] Um, these events happened.

[01:14:59] And because they happened, everything has changed.

[01:15:03] The world is different.

[01:15:04] Um, and we are different.

[01:15:08] And we're being called to recognize that reality.

[01:15:12] And I don't think it's a coincidence that ritual meals involve our senses and our bodies.

[01:15:19] Um, that the, as it were, the passageways by which the world comes to us are grabbed hold of by Jesus and used to impress upon us the reality of this, these titanic events that we are being inscribed into.

[01:15:39] Um, and I have read some Jewish theologians, uh, about how do they think the Passover works.

[01:15:46] Um, and I'm, I'm forgetting the name of the one I'm remembering right now, but he, he says it's ke'elu participation.

[01:15:56] Ke'elu means as if, um, that is, you're not in Egypt, but you're gonna eat bitter herbs.

[01:16:14] Um, and you weren't alive when frogs and boils and naps and all these plagues were happening.

[01:16:23] But you're gonna play with your food if you're a good Jewish kid.

[01:16:28] You're gonna dip your finger in the cup and put drops of wine on your plate to symbolize the 10, 10 plagues.

[01:16:35] Well, it's not so symbolized.

[01:16:36] It's not a flashcard.

[01:16:38] You're doing things.

[01:16:39] You're smelling things.

[01:16:40] You're tasting things.

[01:16:41] You're, you're singing.

[01:16:43] You're involved.

[01:16:44] Um, and so I think that's not a coincidence that Jesus is grabbing the Passover and, um, using it to be about an even more important narrative, a more important event in history.

[01:16:59] His own death and resurrection is coming.

[01:17:02] So, um, what should we be thinking?

[01:17:05] I'm not saying you shouldn't think about Jesus.

[01:17:07] Yeah, you should.

[01:17:08] That's great.

[01:17:09] Um, but your eyes should be open.

[01:17:12] You should recognize you're part of a people, um, that has been redeemed and made sharers in this massive event of the cross and resurrection of Jesus.

[01:17:22] Uh, that it's, it's because you belong to this people and you've been baptized into these events.

[01:17:28] And now you are, you're sharing in a very vivid recreation of what Jesus did at his last supper.

[01:17:35] Um, that should make it vivid to you.

[01:17:39] I do think that realism is part of the aim here.

[01:17:43] Um, it's just that it is a four-dimensional realism, right?

[01:17:48] It's one that involves all our senses and that it's, it's a moving picture.

[01:17:53] Um, or, or I don't know, an Apple vision pro, you know, VR experience here.

[01:17:59] Um, it's, it's not a static mental thought.

[01:18:03] Um, it should come to us by our involvement and participation.

[01:18:07] Does that answer?

[01:18:08] Yeah.

[01:18:09] I'm still struggling though.

[01:18:10] Cause even a movie is just a sequence of images, you know?

[01:18:14] And so is this just dressing up an edible flashcard?

[01:18:17] It's just cause it's, it seems like you're, you know, you're mentioning the Passover, the bitter herb, all that stuff.

[01:18:23] But you know, you're not eating the moldy bread and you know, you know, you know, you know, you bought that, that bitter herb from Publix or, you know, the groceries or whatever.

[01:18:31] And, uh, you eat it and it's triggering something that really did happen.

[01:18:37] It's, but it's, it's triggered in your, in your mind.

[01:18:40] There needs to be a, there needs to be a subjective awareness of it.

[01:18:43] What else is happening beyond the triggering in your mind though?

[01:18:46] I guess it's perhaps maybe we don't, we need to have a more robust understanding of, of the community doing something as something substantial.

[01:18:53] Well, let's remember that, um, even the original Passover didn't work by what the Israelites were thinking.

[01:19:01] They had their meal of lamb and unleavened bread and a lot of them went to sleep.

[01:19:07] Right.

[01:19:08] Um, when the angel of death came along, uh, yeah, there's blood smeared on the doorposts, but it doesn't save them by what they're thinking about it.

[01:19:18] I mean, you could be a complete skeptic.

[01:19:20] An ancient Richard Dawkins or someone might've heard Moses say, kill this Passover lamb and smear this blood on your doorposts.

[01:19:27] And, and then there's going to be a, an angel of death that's going to come and spare you, but kill the Egyptians.

[01:19:33] And maybe you thought, yeah, get out of here, Moses, nothing's going to happen, but I'll go ahead and put the blood on the doorposts anyway, not to be obnoxious.

[01:19:39] It would still work.

[01:19:40] Right.

[01:19:40] Even if you're not thinking of that.

[01:19:43] Um, so how did the Passover work?

[01:19:46] Well, it didn't work by blood transmogrifying or by unleavened bread changing into something, um, or even by the Passover lamb turning into something.

[01:19:57] It worked by the power of God.

[01:19:59] Um, God killed the firstborn of Egypt and let his people out.

[01:20:05] Uh, his, his presence was with them with, with Moses.

[01:20:10] Um, well, Paul seems to be at pretty big pains to remind us that we're dealing with the same reality.

[01:20:17] This is why many of you are sick and some have fallen asleep because you don't realize that you're messing with, okay.

[01:20:25] Yeah.

[01:20:25] With God himself here.

[01:20:27] Um, there is a reality to all this.

[01:20:31] Uh, it's not in your head.

[01:20:33] Yeah.

[01:20:33] I see that.

[01:20:34] Okay.

[01:20:34] So I was going to ask too, because what Passover is after the exit of events.

[01:20:38] It wasn't like, you know, every year a bunch of other Egyptian sons are killed, you know, like, it's just like, but cause I was one, and you even made the parallel with first Corinthians, first Corinthians 10 regarding baptism.

[01:20:51] And, uh, or rather going through the Red Sea and then the manna and the rock was Christ.

[01:20:56] And you're like, they were, stuff was happening, you know, weird stuff was happening.

[01:20:59] And I was wondering what is the weird stuff that happens today?

[01:21:02] And, and I suppose the idea that, uh, God might kill you, I guess.

[01:21:09] He might kill you if you're living in this unrepentant sin, taking the Lord's supper.

[01:21:13] Or he might bless you if you're not.

[01:21:15] Okay.

[01:21:16] Yeah.

[01:21:16] But here's where I differ from so many of my philosophical theologian friends.

[01:21:24] Um, I don't feel pressure to come up with a metaphysical explanation of how it works.

[01:21:32] It's enough for me that God is making it work.

[01:21:35] Um, that the one who raised Jesus from the dead is also with us.

[01:21:40] And, um, he is making us share in, in Jesus.

[01:21:45] How can he do that with just water on us?

[01:21:48] Is there something magical about the water?

[01:21:51] Did the water change?

[01:21:52] No, it's God's water.

[01:21:54] He told us to do it.

[01:21:56] He's the one who's going to make it happen.

[01:21:57] And so both of these meals work on a timeline of Jewish eschatological expectation.

[01:22:06] What has God already done?

[01:22:08] Where are we?

[01:22:09] We're still in relationship and covenant with the same God.

[01:22:12] What are we looking forward to?

[01:22:14] Our own resurrection and the life of the world to come.

[01:22:18] Um, do we have those things yet?

[01:22:20] Well, no, not fully, but we have, we see Jesus seated at God's right hand.

[01:22:24] He's sharing in God's rule of the universe.

[01:22:27] Um, so he's, he's the, uh, the proof that we're going to with our bodies will be like

[01:22:34] his glorious body.

[01:22:36] Um, we who have been crucified with him in baptism, uh, we will be raised with him.

[01:22:42] And his, and our resurrection is not a totally separate event.

[01:22:46] It's, it's the fulfillment and the continuation and the rest of Jesus's resurrection.

[01:22:51] Uh, so how does it work?

[01:22:53] You know, there's going to be some mystery.

[01:22:55] How did Passover work?

[01:22:57] Um, how, how is it that every Jew was supposed to regard himself as having passed out of Egypt?

[01:23:02] Well, they're in covenant with that same God.

[01:23:04] Um, they're living in, in the land perhaps where God has brought his people.

[01:23:10] Those events are real, um, to them and they can have a reasonable, um, expectation made more vivid by all the smells and tastes and activities that they've engaged in.

[01:23:22] Um, they can have an expectation that they will enjoy the fulfillment of those things in the future.

[01:23:28] That's a good point.

[01:23:29] I mean, God is the, the, the connecting tissue, uh, in the sense of it's like we, we do have it.

[01:23:37] We have this meal, like, like Ice Lightheart was saying at the command of God.

[01:23:41] And it is a real, he really is present with us in that room.

[01:23:44] Uh, you know, and, and, and I mean, I don't think that's even a high sacramentology to say that.

[01:23:50] Let me make another point here about that.

[01:23:52] Is that even those who want to go some substance or real presence fruit, because they think it explains more or that it is more satisfying than what I'm urging.

[01:24:05] And, which is a sort of narrative participationist view of, um, how the sacraments work.

[01:24:12] Even those who want to talk about substances and real presence, they have to make some epicycles, so to speak.

[01:24:19] Um, they have to posit things.

[01:24:24] For instance, the whole idea that the bread becomes Jesus's body.

[01:24:30] When? How does that happen?

[01:24:31] Well, the priest says, Hocus Corpus.

[01:24:35] Literally the etymology of Hocus Pocus.

[01:24:37] Um, the priest says it.

[01:24:40] And then, at that moment, that's when the bread changes.

[01:24:43] Where did you get that?

[01:24:45] Where in the Bible does it ever say that pastors are going to change bread into Jesus's body by saying words over them?

[01:24:52] Over, over, over, over bread.

[01:24:55] And, and yet on the Roman Catholic view, this is the central act of their worship.

[01:25:01] This is what everything revolves around.

[01:25:03] And yet, there are no words provided for pastors to use.

[01:25:08] There are no instructions about the so-called manual acts.

[01:25:12] Like, what kind of little gestures are you supposed to make over this bread?

[01:25:15] When should you pick it up?

[01:25:16] Should you physically break it?

[01:25:17] Um, it's very, uh, silent about all these matters.

[01:25:24] Um, and on top of that, the idea that we need the help of, uh, an ancient pagan Greek philosopher to give us the conceptual equipment to explain how the change happens.

[01:25:37] That's not in the Bible either.

[01:25:39] Um, go ahead.

[01:25:40] How did the church lose this so early?

[01:25:43] I mean, you alluded to that.

[01:25:44] I mean, because there, you know, is this like kind of the great apostasy kind of theory?

[01:25:49] Or, or, or, you know, how did, how did that happen?

[01:25:54] So, I think there's a number of different things.

[01:25:57] Um, first, as we saw already, maybe with Melto, there's a medieval unconcern with Judaism.

[01:26:06] An antagonism with Judaism.

[01:26:08] Um, at best seeing it as irrelevant.

[01:26:12] Like, think about how much are medieval Christians or even Reformation era Christians thinking of Jesus as Israel's Messiah, as the fulfillment of Israel's story.

[01:26:26] Second, there's the influence of Platonism, which is pretty strong in medievals and reformers, especially Augustine.

[01:26:36] Um, but also sort of, uh, medieval, medieval Christian Neoplatonism, Dionysus, Pseudo-Ariopagite.

[01:26:44] There's, and that, Platonism tells a different story.

[01:26:48] Uh, it's, it's not about, so much about the body as participation or contemplating the realm of real being.

[01:26:57] Um, which is timeless and unchanging.

[01:27:01] Uh, this is not exactly close to the biblical hope of resurrection of the body and the life of the world to come.

[01:27:09] Um, um, it's much more disembodied.

[01:27:11] I think we still see that.

[01:27:13] And Tom Wright has invaded against it in lots of his books and speeches, um, about how your average Christian nowadays thinks that the end and goal of the Christian life is to die and go to heaven.

[01:27:26] Well, that's deeply sub-biblical.

[01:27:30] Um, and it's a different shape of the story.

[01:27:33] Uh, it's not the story the Bible is telling.

[01:27:36] So the parting of the ways between the church and the synagogue, the fact that, for instance, the church council that we all love as the foundation of Trinitarian Orthodoxy and the vindication of Jesus' divinity, Council of Nicaea,

[01:27:50] also promulgated as one of its canons, um, that Christians who had been celebrating Easter according to the date of the Jewish calendar for when it was Passover, namely the 14th day of the month of Nisan.

[01:28:08] So these Christians were called Quarto Decomeneians, 14th day.

[01:28:13] Um, Nicaea said, you may not do that anymore.

[01:28:16] You need to become good little Gentiles and use a Julian calendar.

[01:28:19] Um, not use the Jewish calendar anymore.

[01:28:23] Well, again, St. Paul spinning in his grave.

[01:28:26] What?

[01:28:26] You're saying that you have to become non-not Jewish to, um, to follow Jesus?

[01:28:33] Like, what is the, what is the cry that the church by the Spirit utters?

[01:28:38] Well, Abba Hopater.

[01:28:41] That's a Aramaic Jewish utterance and a Greek utterance.

[01:28:46] It's very significant and important for St. Paul, not that, um, that we all must become Gentiles or stop being Jewish, but that Jews and Greeks are made one in one body.

[01:29:01] So, the parting of the way is very damaging.

[01:29:04] Partly this is just repercussions of the majority of Israelites not accepting Jesus as the Messiah.

[01:29:11] It could hardly be otherwise.

[01:29:13] Paul says in Romans 11 again, what will, if, if they're, they're cutting off has been life for the Gentiles.

[01:29:21] What will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

[01:29:24] Um, I think recovering Jewish Christianity, um, will be a blessing for the church.

[01:29:33] Uh, getting, getting more in touch with, um, that whole Jewish background of the New Testament, the whole Old Testament, uh, that gives us the job description of the Messiah.

[01:29:49] And the shape of the history into which he fits.

[01:29:51] Having a keen awareness of those things is absolutely necessary.

[01:29:54] And the idea that we can do it while not having any such thing as Jewish Christians because we've forbidden them, I think that's very dangerous.

[01:30:03] Uh, and then finally, this was another huge issue.

[01:30:08] I think there are very few interpreters of the Bible who are willing and eager to take seriously its historicity and its theological content at the same time.

[01:30:21] I think often, uh, I think some of my friends at the Davenu Institute, that they're very invested in philosophy of being, which is telling a very different story.

[01:30:34] And if you think that the goal is the beatific vision and the contemplation of true being, then all this stuff about Israel and its messy history starts looking a little bit irrelevant.

[01:30:49] Um, let alone investigating post-biblical Judaism and seeing if it has anything that might shed light on the New Testament.

[01:30:57] That would seem to be a blind hour if the real goal is, um, to contemplate being.

[01:31:03] Um, so I think the church has, it has some work to do.

[01:31:09] And we're living, I think, in an exciting time for that.

[01:31:12] For instance, um, Strach-Berwebeck, which is a commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and the Midrash.

[01:31:20] Um, and it was using early, early post-biblical Jewish sources, rabbinic Judaism, et cetera, um, to illuminate phrases, to explain locutions, to give possible background that might've been also at work at the time of the New Testament.

[01:31:39] Um, that just got translated into English in the last 10 years.

[01:31:43] Um, and prior to that, it had been only in German.

[01:31:47] Um, uh, the amount of knowledge that the church has about Judaism, it's never been greater, I would argue.

[01:31:57] Maybe, maybe at the very beginning it was greater, right, when everybody was still Jewish.

[01:32:01] But since the second century, there's never been a time when we've had more knowledge of ancient Judaism, um, than we do today.

[01:32:11] We have the texts.

[01:32:12] We have the Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in the 1950s.

[01:32:16] Um, we know, we know more about the Jewish background of the Bible than the reformers or the medievals could ever have hoped to know.

[01:32:23] Um, so I think that's a very hopeful thing.

[01:32:27] Uh, and you see this, I think, in modern biblical scholarship, uh, on the New Testament.

[01:32:33] Uh, it's, it's not really possible anymore to responsibly write books purporting to explain what Paul or Jesus meant without using Jewish background.

[01:32:45] Um, that's a change that's happened in the last 100 years.

[01:32:49] Well, this is a great conversation, very informative, and I appreciate you taking the time, uh, to do this.

[01:32:55] I'll put a link to your book with this, and, uh, yeah, I just appreciate you, the scholarship you've put into this, and the thought you put into it.

[01:33:03] And I do think it is an exciting time, um, probably with the internet and just the amount of text that we have available.

[01:33:09] Uh, there's a lot of interesting avenues that we could go down to reclaiming some of this stuff and to recapturing it, and also applying it in our modern days.

[01:33:20] So, Matt, thanks for coming on the show.

[01:33:21] Appreciate it so much.

[01:33:23] Thank you.

[01:33:23] Pleasure.

[01:33:24] Thanks for listening to this episode.

[01:33:26] If you liked it, please support the show and consider becoming a Patreon supporter.

[01:33:30] You can find all the links to our YouTube channel and our Instagram account in the show notes.

[01:33:36] Thank you guys for joining us.