Can Gossip Be Good? with Matthew Lee Anderson

[00:00:00] Church is rightly worn against gossip and we can all do a better job of controlling our tongue in this area.

[00:00:06] But there also may be certain circumstances in which gossip is permissible. At least that's what

[00:00:11] Matthew Lee Anderson of Mere Fidelity is going to argue as he joins us to talk about certain specific

[00:00:18] circumstances that may permit the use of gossip to protect a vulnerable third party.

[00:00:23] But he identifies some very specific criteria based on the moral and theological tradition of the

[00:00:29] church so that we don't go crazy with this. But he says that if we have these certain things locked

[00:00:35] down, we can rightly use gossip for the greater good, for what is right and just.

[00:00:41] But he's also realistic about the way things are. And so he actually talks about the need

[00:00:46] for churches to clamp down on a culture of gossip and the courage that churches

[00:00:49] need to cultivate among their members to challenge each other face to face, to have

[00:00:54] fraternal brotherly correction. And only when those things are in place and the norm can

[00:01:00] the exception be used responsibly. It's a fascinating interview. I'm still thinking about it even as

[00:01:07] I record this and I hope that it stimulates some thought in you whether you agree or disagree.

[00:01:11] I think it's a really crucial issue for us to discuss. Enjoy this episode.

[00:01:16] You're listening to That'll Preach. Got on our show today, Dr. Matthew Lee Anderson. He's

[00:01:26] assistant professor of ethics and theology at Baylor University's Honors College.

[00:01:30] He's also a co-host on Mirror Fidelity, which is a podcast on faith, theology and ethics.

[00:01:35] He's written a couple books. He's written Earth and Vessels, Why Our Bodies Matter to our

[00:01:39] faith as well as the end of our exploring. We're glad to have him on the podcast

[00:01:44] here with us. Matt, thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:48] I think I'm looking forward to this, but I'm not entirely sure. I'm a little apprehensive.

[00:01:51] The jury's still out. The jury's still out. But we want to talk today on an interesting

[00:01:56] paper you've written about whether or when is there a Christian responsibility to gossip? And

[00:02:03] gossip is talked about a lot in the church and I thought this was really an interesting

[00:02:09] topic to take on. And I'm curious just the backstory of it. What got you inspired to

[00:02:14] write on something like gossip? Yeah. Well, I do theological ethics, which means that I'm the guy

[00:02:21] to call if you want some reasons to do what you were going to do anyways.

[00:02:25] And so I needed some reasons to justify gossiping in some cases. That's a bit of a joke.

[00:02:34] Actually, that's 100% of a joke. That's not how I ended up taking on the subject. But it is

[00:02:40] the case that there were personal practical situations that I was adjacent to where there

[00:02:47] were known bad actors. And this is a common phenomenon, right? You're at a place of employment or a

[00:02:55] church, someone has done something, they've wronged another person and you have to deliberate.

[00:03:00] What can we say about this? Who can we say it to? How can we speak about this

[00:03:06] to them or to third parties? And so I found myself in a couple of situations where people were running

[00:03:14] through this set of questions. And I thought, oh, this is interesting. I think these questions

[00:03:20] are more complicated than just a standard do not gossip line would take. I think there's

[00:03:30] actually a lot of ambiguity about what we mean around gossip, about the sorts of contexts

[00:03:34] that we would gossip in. And I wanted to try to clarify some of those stakes and some of those

[00:03:40] situations. So that was really the genesis. It was actually a paper that was rooted in personal

[00:03:46] experience of reasoning with people about what they could speak about, what they could say,

[00:03:50] and how they could say it. It's interesting that gossip becomes a topic of interest.

[00:03:57] Sometimes the context you're like, okay, this is a little weird. People are using gossip

[00:04:00] as like, don't gossip as a defense to protect something usually when there's scandal,

[00:04:06] people signing NDAs, all these types of things. Gossip becomes a terminology that's thrown around

[00:04:12] to say we're trying to stay above board here. But I think what's interesting about your article

[00:04:18] is you note how that can actually aid something even more destructive than whatever the perceived

[00:04:25] threat of gossip could be. Yeah. So I start with Pope Francis who has over the course of

[00:04:31] the last few years issued a number of very strong statements against gossip. I mean,

[00:04:36] he had a line where he compared gossip, gossips to terrorists who throw bombs at people's

[00:04:43] reputations. And on the one hand, I think there's some truth to the metaphor of killing and

[00:04:51] killing people's reputations. On the other hand, you just want to say, read the room Pope Francis,

[00:04:57] like to denounce gossip in the midst of the ongoing revelation of sex abuse scandals.

[00:05:07] Sounds like you're actually trying to protect bad actors within your community. Now, I don't

[00:05:15] think that that's what Pope Francis was doing. I think that would be a suspicious or cynical

[00:05:20] reading of what he was trying to do in those cases. I think what he's trying to do is warn people

[00:05:26] against engaging in forms of speech that are genuinely destructive without being responsible

[00:05:34] in how they're speaking. But it's still almost the wrong message. But actually,

[00:05:40] in one way, I actually think for gossip to be done effectively, you do actually have to have

[00:05:46] really robust prohibitions against it in a community. I think you have to say regularly,

[00:05:52] gossip is bad. Don't do it. Like don't speak freely about third parties behind their back.

[00:05:58] Don't engage in trivial speech. Don't detract others. Don't pull them down behind their backs.

[00:06:05] Don't do any of that. All of that sort of speech will destroy a Christian community.

[00:06:09] I think you have to have a really robust culture of prohibitions on those types of speech so that

[00:06:18] when people do gossip, when they actually do communicate, so and so did this. And it was

[00:06:25] very bad and you should be careful that people take that seriously because if you don't have a culture

[00:06:31] or if you have a culture where people are talking all the time about third parties

[00:06:35] and saying, oh so and so did this, so and so did that, you actually have a tough time

[00:06:40] separating the signal from the noise as it works. Like, oh, I'm hearing so much about these third

[00:06:45] parties. I don't know how to tell what's true and what's not versus if that doesn't happen very

[00:06:51] often, if someone comes along and says, hey, Joe did this, then I think, oh, I've got to take

[00:06:56] this really seriously. It's a big deal in our community to talk about this third party

[00:07:00] behind their back is really risky. We think that you might be doing something morally bad

[00:07:05] by speaking in this way. I actually have to take away this very, very seriously and when it might

[00:07:11] when wish I might not have to if everyone was talking with each other all the time.

[00:07:16] So you're not saying that so basically your definition of gossip is not one that has,

[00:07:22] of course, have to bring up definitions and one philosopher in the room.

[00:07:26] But it seems like you agree that there's a distinction here between gossip when it's

[00:07:31] condemned in the New Testament and it seems even the stuff that Pope Francis is writing about is

[00:07:36] talking about people behind their back, perhaps in ways that you wouldn't ever

[00:07:41] be willing to confront them face to face or perhaps even speaking without knowledge

[00:07:47] or speaking without good evidence or delighting in the communication of secret knowledge or

[00:07:53] those sorts of things seem intrinsically bad. So when you say gossip could be permissible

[00:07:58] sometimes you mean spreading true information to people who could benefit from it in certain kinds of

[00:08:07] cases. I mean, are there examples of where you think this might be particularly salient or?

[00:08:14] Yeah. So I think that a lot of the examples that you gave about speaking ill of others

[00:08:21] or speaking about bad things that they did, they can't be intrinsically bad.

[00:08:26] Certain aspects that you named are intrinsically bad but others I think are just bad as such.

[00:08:33] So Aquinas has this distinction, I think between natural evil and that would actually

[00:08:40] which would actually be a moral evil and there are lots of natural evils like death

[00:08:48] that we would rightly resist. In certain contexts inflicting that natural evil on someone constitutes

[00:08:58] murder. In other contexts like just war for Aquinas I think that does not constitute murder it's an

[00:09:05] authorized killing so even though you're inflicting a natural evil on someone you're doing so in

[00:09:10] such a way with the right intention and the right circumstances, with the right form that

[00:09:15] it authorizes that action and makes it morally permissible. I think something similar is true

[00:09:19] about gossip such that the forms of speech that we engage in in a pernicious way on a regular basis

[00:09:26] where we're talking bad about Joe as we're sort of just comparing notes and we're pulling him

[00:09:32] down and making ourselves feel better because he's laughable and we're not like I think that's

[00:09:39] actually a bad form of speech and it's morally bad if we're doing it for the sake of building ourselves

[00:09:48] up or just to tear him down. It's morally appropriate if we're in a situation where Joe is a bad actor

[00:09:57] and the person that I'm talking to is at risk of being harmed by Joe in some way

[00:10:05] and here's the other qualifier that I'd add. I don't have obligations or responsibilities to

[00:10:10] fraternally correct Joe right so I that for whatever reason Joe is beyond fraternal correction I know

[00:10:18] that like multiple people have gone to Joe and tried to say hey you've done this bad thing don't

[00:10:24] do that repent and Joe has been like it's not bad I'm fine right and everyone thinks oh if we

[00:10:30] continue to try to press Joe on this he's just going to get worse if that's the case then I don't

[00:10:36] have any obligation to go to Joe but I do need to protect Sam and so I go to Sam and say guess what

[00:10:43] Joe is a really abusive boss he's gonna like verbally torch you he's gonna emotionally manipulate

[00:10:50] you he's gonna do all these things and you're gonna feel terrible at the end of every single

[00:10:56] work day and that's a part of his character and you need to know that so that you're protected

[00:11:02] that that tears down Joe's reputation right like it defames Joe but it's the sort of speech

[00:11:08] I think we have to be able to participate in if we're going to create healthy communities

[00:11:15] where we protect people who are in danger of being harmed by bad actors. Whenever you keep

[00:11:20] saying bad actors I'm just like I just literally am like you're around like Vin Diesel or

[00:11:24] something just yeah yeah like where are you hanging out meeting all these acts that's as interesting

[00:11:32] especially when you talk about like the third party aspect seems important you're because it's

[00:11:38] not something you're doing to defend yourself necessarily or to certainly it's not for self

[00:11:44] centered means but you are recognizing that somebody else is going to be harmed if this

[00:11:50] information is not brought to light is that is it that third party and a key aspect of it

[00:11:55] I think the third party aspect of it is crucial and this is a piece of a broader question about

[00:12:03] the role of our own reputation in the moral life right when should we defend our own reputation

[00:12:08] when others defame it I actually think that I probably should never defend my own reputation

[00:12:14] for my own sake like I think the sort of cases where I mean there's lots of reasons why one is

[00:12:21] just a practical reason it almost never works people who defend their reputation for their own

[00:12:26] sake end up looking defensive and everyone interprets that as a sign of their guilt so there's that

[00:12:33] sort of risk if you defend yourself but I do think actually you know there are third parties

[00:12:40] who are connected to me in some ways who might themselves experience some sort of social harm

[00:12:45] if my reputation if I'm subject to false accusations in those sorts of cases I think it's reasonable

[00:12:51] for me to defend my reputation for their sake right so that they don't suffer harm as additional

[00:12:57] innocent victims of false allegations and so I think that the presence of third parties in

[00:13:03] our moral reasoning of reputation is really pivotal like much hangs on the fact that it's not just me

[00:13:11] and my social identity that's at stake in these things it is actually other people who are connected

[00:13:18] to me and so you know defaming someone else for the sake of protecting a third party I

[00:13:27] think that that reason sanctions all types of speech that would never be sanctioned in other

[00:13:34] types of contexts. You talk about how this is this can be a legitimate form of Christian discourse

[00:13:40] which I think is interesting because I can see somebody saying that okay I get it maybe in a

[00:13:44] corporate setting that makes sense maybe in a legal setting but actually to say that in the

[00:13:48] Christian sphere there may be times to do this but I do like I do want to underscore I

[00:13:53] there's ways in which I wrote this paper a couple of years ago and it's a kind of fun thing to do you

[00:13:59] know it feels like academic clickbait you know like oh you thought gossip was bad but now I'm

[00:14:07] going to tell you actually there's some context where it's good and I I do wonder about the

[00:14:15] emphasis that I have in that paper and I and I worry about treating this issue as a kind of standalone

[00:14:25] because I think there's another side to our Christian communities where we do not have

[00:14:30] cultures of fraternal correction and I've spent a lot of time thinking about this over the last

[00:14:34] year year and a half and if if you don't have a robust culture of fraternal correction where

[00:14:43] people go to each other directly and say I think that you have wronged me or wronged some other party

[00:14:50] if we don't have that then I think that the justification for gossip becomes a kind of

[00:14:57] rationalization right we're trying to let ourselves off the hook from doing the really hard thing of

[00:15:02] going to each other and saying you have sinned dear friend or at least it seems to me can

[00:15:07] you explain to me how what you've done is not sin right and having those sorts of hard conversations

[00:15:14] so I do I do want to say in a Christian community it only works like gossip is only

[00:15:22] justified as a kind of last resort right and in that way it does fit kind of modern just war

[00:15:29] principles right it's an option of last resort and you really have to have fraternal correction

[00:15:36] and some of these other things in place for it to be even effective or justified it's got to live

[00:15:42] in a healthy ecosystem it sounds like because yeah and I noticed and I mean I think we've all

[00:15:47] rolled in guilty of the sin of gossip and and there is a feeling of you're letting yourself

[00:15:53] off the hook usually from doing the fraternal correction that you know would require

[00:15:59] a level of courage and yeah it's like a pseudo confession or it's just like a it does have

[00:16:05] this kind of psychological effect of lessening the burden on you at the expense of the other person

[00:16:12] and so that's that's a very key to I'm glad you brought that up because I think that that

[00:16:15] and it's but it's also really hard because there's lots of context where we need to seek

[00:16:19] counsel that's true right yeah and seeking counsel about a situation or a person will

[00:16:26] often involve saying enough defamatory things about them that the person is able to give

[00:16:31] meaningful counsel about how I should act right right and one of the things that has happened with

[00:16:38] Christian speech and over you know generations is the decline of the confessional as a place of

[00:16:47] counsel and not only confession but a place where the confession is intertwined with

[00:16:54] direction and counsel about what a person should do the decline of that

[00:16:59] has meant that sort of non-authorized there aren't authorized venues for speaking about other people

[00:17:10] in the church in healthy or constructive ways and you know like and there's a question about

[00:17:18] whether the confessional ever really secured the church from engaging in those sorts of

[00:17:24] malicious types of speech the medieval's are just so concerned about sins of speech they are

[00:17:30] intensely focused on speech and they you know they do have the confessional and they're providing

[00:17:37] priests with really robust norms and directives about how to speak with people about wrong

[00:17:44] doings and what the boundaries are about whose wrong doings can be brought into a confessional

[00:17:50] um so there's a question there about whether that's ever happened but I but I do think actually we do

[00:17:55] need authorized forms of counsel where we can speak freely about what we have perceived to have been

[00:18:02] like bad actions by others so that we can gain the courage and the wisdom through that process

[00:18:10] to then go and fraternally correct in a healthy way because if I'm just like they've hurt me and

[00:18:16] I feel hurt but I don't I'm not entirely sure that I have been hurt the odds of me going and

[00:18:24] fraternally correcting that person and screwing that up and alienating them very high right

[00:18:29] I've got to talk through that with someone who can you know say like no I really think that

[00:18:35] was like in this respect that really was wrong with them if that's what they did

[00:18:40] but this other respect that you're feeling that's kind of you right like you're you're

[00:18:45] overly sensitive in this way I've got to be able to have that conversation so that when I go to them

[00:18:50] I'm like here's the thing as I thought about it that really troubled me about what you said

[00:18:57] and they can receive it and I can distinguish between that thing and all the other things

[00:19:01] that they said that were right um that so you know like sorry there's a long rambly answer

[00:19:10] but we do need not just fraternal correction but real counsel real opportunities for these

[00:19:16] sorts of dialogues with people about third parties so when you say that so basically this the defense

[00:19:23] of this qualified gossip here really comes at the end of this chain of it sits it sits in a much

[00:19:29] larger project right yeah where it's about if you think that speaking the truth towards a good

[00:19:35] end is good we can do that these formal structures like confession like having groups of people that I

[00:19:43] can use as sounding boards for my grievances those can help me weed through how I'm thinking about

[00:19:50] the offense and then so if if if that tells me that we've got a legitimate case for fraternal

[00:19:57] correction yes you've actually been wrong yes the way that you're construing the offense

[00:20:01] is right like you've you're justified you've got claim you've got standing all of this stuff is right

[00:20:06] then I can proceed to fraternally correct and then if that doesn't work and presumably other people in

[00:20:11] the community have also intervened that doesn't work this person's not changing their behavior

[00:20:16] they're not recognizing they're wrong now the gossip here that you're defending is just well

[00:20:21] I can speak the truth towards a good end namely to let others see that this person is a bad actor

[00:20:30] and prevent them from ending up in a similar situation to my own which is also getting wrong

[00:20:36] by this person so I mean in one case it does sound kind of like I mean I think everyone would agree

[00:20:42] with this this seems like it's not that counterintuitive of a conclusion right I hope so yeah

[00:20:50] this seems very plausible it does but then you know as I was working on this paper I had a

[00:20:58] a friend who I was talking with about it who said oh do you know about this church's policy on gossip

[00:21:07] yeah it it's a church in my current hometown where I will not name the name of it though I

[00:21:13] think I link the podcast of it in the paper so if you're really intrigued you can go look that up

[00:21:19] but you know this church has a policy of it's a zero tolerance gossip policy

[00:21:26] and the policy is if you talk about anyone in the church behind it and I think this is only for

[00:21:34] the leadership for people on staff but if you talk about anyone else on staff not like with them

[00:21:41] not in the room you have to go to them surely that's not like I mean you can't say like we had a great

[00:21:50] time at pastor so-and-so's barbecue last week like when they're not in the room with you that

[00:21:54] I'm presuming that they are assuming that this is negative speech about a third party

[00:22:01] but it's a 24 hour rule you have to go within 24 hours to that person directly and make repair

[00:22:08] and restitution for what they said I think this is an interesting question because if if

[00:22:16] if you both speak ill of me which is highly likely after I'm done with the podcast right

[00:22:22] and you don't never like I might never know and whether or not you have to make restitution

[00:22:31] to me is I think an open question right if I never know if you repent if you like sorted out afterwards

[00:22:39] and are like hey we said all that stuff about Matt we shouldn't have done that we don't actually think

[00:22:44] that's necessarily true or here's another way of telling the story and you frame my existence in

[00:22:50] such a way that it becomes more palatable and you're able to act towards me and charity once

[00:22:54] again I think if you do all that that might be fine and you don't have to make restitution

[00:22:58] for that sort of backbiting or defaming but I'm not sure on that right or if you limit the damage

[00:23:06] you've done or if you go back to the person said I guess that was wrong of me to say that about this

[00:23:11] person or you could think that could be yeah I think if you do that you that might be enough

[00:23:16] because I don't know it's not like I've I will ever learn that you have done that about me

[00:23:23] and so I'm not I don't have any sort of sense that I've been wronged by you

[00:23:28] okay good so Paul we're in the clear all the things we said are you telling me about Matt

[00:23:33] and there's so much to say about me that's negative so I'll just grant that to you both

[00:23:37] and to all of my critics right like I'm giving everyone ample opportunity and basis to speak

[00:23:45] ill of me terrible takes about theology but great takes about Mexican food and Waco

[00:23:50] you know your confession I don't know the food scene in Waco I'm your man there you go

[00:23:55] I think on your most recent me for Deli podcast yeah you guys are talking about

[00:24:00] cause history and I hope I said that right and and the end you did yeah importantly not

[00:24:05] kazoo history yeah right not kazoo history and and um and yeah I guess it's a debate on

[00:24:11] whether confession ever really did what you were ideally hoping it would do but I have

[00:24:16] noticed in times just you know in ministry people will say you know and they're genuinely

[00:24:21] trying to work for something like have I actually been sent against am I being too sensitive yeah

[00:24:26] when this person said something do I need to correct them is this you know and then they have to

[00:24:30] they have to say what it is otherwise I can't really you know but then there is this understanding

[00:24:35] of like okay there's an understanding from them that I'm going to keep things confidential

[00:24:42] about them and that I'm not going to try to ruin that person's reputation or spread that around

[00:24:46] but then I think I hope and maybe I could do better on this there's an understanding

[00:24:52] from on my end that they understand for me that I am doing is to help them act in a proper way

[00:25:00] not just trying to be eventing sounding board or like just someone offloading their grievances

[00:25:06] with somebody but there has to be some kind of positive step toward reconciliation or

[00:25:12] or you know anything like that because I think you're right and your caution about like you don't

[00:25:18] want this to be rationalization for like our base desires or anything like that but you do

[00:25:22] that's really hard to cultivate the kind of culture in which those things are understood

[00:25:27] and where gossip is so rare that when something does come up you know it's sort of

[00:25:33] been organically vetted as like we probably should look into this because we're not a gossip

[00:25:39] culture this is a genuine red flag yeah I think that's right your point about how you

[00:25:47] the the type of speech or the nature of the speech act when someone comes in

[00:25:51] asks you for counsel changes the moral significance of it right like this is not just

[00:25:58] inventing my spleen at this situation this is a genuine attempt to discern what the good

[00:26:07] and the right is but so much of ordinary trivial speech about others has that type of effect

[00:26:20] even if indirectly right we learn about the moral life through speaking about what others do

[00:26:31] or do not do so much and this is where like why I the acute sensitivity to vain or idle speech

[00:26:45] that the medieval staff is really authorized by scripture right where you have Jesus

[00:26:53] saying every word that you utter will be assessed will be judged at the last days which is I think

[00:27:04] the most terrifying line in all the Bible like if you want to think about the scope of God's

[00:27:10] judgment and whether or not like I'm off the hook for anything all of the accidental

[00:27:17] incidental thoughtless comments that I make will all fall under the scope of divine judgment

[00:27:27] and that that makes me want to have a kind of hyper intentionality about speech to just be really

[00:27:36] attentive and aware at all times of what I am doing when I'm speaking and what I'm

[00:27:43] intending to do when I'm speaking and to allow those intentions to as much as I can be motivated

[00:27:48] by love so that my speech is not vain or empty or idle right like the prohibitions and this is

[00:27:56] why actually I should do wonder whether the category of gossip is helpful because it seems almost

[00:28:04] too broad right it encompasses defaming speech on the one side but then it also

[00:28:10] encompasses the idle chatter that could just be about third parties that

[00:28:22] may be defaming but might not be right it's just sort of you're telling trivial tales about

[00:28:28] a person's life and the the the norms against that that scripture lays down those really

[00:28:35] haunt me but the other side of it is our moral formation as people seems inextricable from these

[00:28:43] types of speech like we just we just learn so much because we cannot experience everything

[00:28:50] directly about the moral life that we need to know right we have to be able to experience

[00:28:54] things vicariously by watching others and by hearing others and the only way in which

[00:29:01] we can do that is through gossip and so I I do feel of two minds about the role of this sort of

[00:29:08] speech in in the Christian life because on the one hand that we have these prohibitions on the other

[00:29:14] hand is think what else are we going to talk about maybe one way to take all these insights

[00:29:19] and hold them together is so we know that there are two ways that we can air we can air on the

[00:29:25] side of a strict prohibition against gossip or we can air on the side of a really lax position

[00:29:32] towards gossip and defamatory speech and given the stakes given what you were just talking about

[00:29:38] god demanding an account of every word we say the ease with which it we can slip into idle

[00:29:45] chatter or defamatory speech or just using speech poorly in ways that undermine fellow

[00:29:51] image bearers perhaps the the warnings that are you know this church that you mentioned no gossip

[00:29:57] ever it might be over calibrated and it might be making a strict principle out of something

[00:30:02] that's just supposed to be a guideline but given the stakes maybe that's it's a helpful

[00:30:08] correct if it's like when you've got kids you over calibrate the warnings you tell them

[00:30:12] don't go near you know the pool when actually you're worried about them drowning you don't

[00:30:17] want them in the deep end but you like build a hedge around the dangerous thing and given just

[00:30:24] the propensity of human nature to if you give them an inch they'll take a mile

[00:30:27] and given also the high stakes of you know using language is a really serious thing when we use it

[00:30:33] poorly perhaps we should air on the side of an overly restrictive ethic concerning

[00:30:40] speech rather than even though you're technically right so we can say yeah philosophically

[00:30:45] this yeah there are in principle cases where this is permissible perhaps we should recognize human

[00:30:51] nature has a tendency to slide in this direction and so put a preventative curb there in the form

[00:30:58] of these really really strict overly calibrated warnings I don't know what do you think of that

[00:31:04] yeah there's different ways of framing this so you use the guidelines

[00:31:08] framework another way to frame it would be something like there is actually an absolute

[00:31:17] prohibition on speech of this kind it's just under specified we just have to specify the

[00:31:26] context in which this prohibition applies and the work of specifying the context will show us

[00:31:34] that there are other types of context where we can speak in a way that would seem like it fits

[00:31:41] the prohibition but is fine I think I like that way of framing it a little more than guidelines

[00:31:49] because I tend to think that the guidelines language I worry that it allows me too much

[00:32:00] flexibility like oh those are just you know and maybe it's just I have the

[00:32:06] very dumb very bad early 2000s pirates of the care of mind they're more like guidelines you know

[00:32:18] which is I think about every time this sort of thing comes up you know the rules of parlay

[00:32:25] there's more guidelines right and then just sort of like oh I can change those whenever I want

[00:32:29] according to but I think actually that the the language of absolute prohibition

[00:32:38] helps me it raises the moral stakes for what I'm going to do I also think it's worth

[00:32:42] worth really trying to underscore and form people to see what they're doing when they're defaming

[00:32:50] a third party right is the imagery of terrorism or death and killing the right sort of imagery

[00:33:02] to use to speak about defamatory speech if it is then that's that type of speech should only be done

[00:33:15] in very very special circumstances under church authority maybe right like you want you want

[00:33:23] some sort of I've I too am a man under authority like I I recognize I can't just go kill people's

[00:33:32] reputations indiscriminately on my own private judgment that's too heavy a weight to bear

[00:33:41] and I think I think that that's the sort of like moral formation we really have to think about

[00:33:49] what is the value of these people's reputations in this community and what happens if we do destroy

[00:33:58] their reputations even if even if it's just to do so what happens to them and will that be good

[00:34:06] for them in addition to good for the people who they might injure or harm right and to that extent

[00:34:15] like it is a question of what loving the enemy requires in addition to protecting the vulnerable

[00:34:26] right like those two those two have to be held I mean it could be loving the enemy to kill their

[00:34:32] character in certain cases assuming you've gone through all the proper channels if if a damaged

[00:34:39] reputation undermines your ability to keep doing wicked things that is God's grace to you so it could

[00:34:46] be a way of loving someone assuming you've gone through all the requisite channels like you've

[00:34:50] mentioned this is the last resort but it's not only protecting to the people who are likely

[00:34:56] to be abused and oppressed or whatever it's still also it's a grace to the person whose character is

[00:35:03] being killed by preventing them from being able to do the abuse later on I think that is right

[00:35:10] so I want to say I think that's right

[00:35:15] at the same time the medieval's like Aquinas and Augustine I think has this principle too I think

[00:35:24] Cicero has a view like this they have this notion that when people lose their reputations their good

[00:35:31] names they're liable to act worse than they would have otherwise because there's something about

[00:35:38] having a good name that's actually a check on bad conduct right there are principles of shame

[00:35:46] and stigma that keep people from acting in really pernicious ways that's that's I don't know what I

[00:35:54] think of that principle but I want to take it seriously like I don't want to discount that

[00:35:58] necessarily so that's that's one caution about it the other caution that I have

[00:36:03] on these cases is when I do defame a person when I do destroy their good name in a community

[00:36:12] even if it's just I create circumstances or conditions that make it almost impossible for

[00:36:22] them to re-enter the community and what are the what are the conditions under which they could be

[00:36:29] restored to the community itself not to leave I mean in in so many cases I think where people

[00:36:37] lose their good name in a community they just up up and move right they'll move move into new

[00:36:42] communities and I I understand that but I actually think that that just avoids the moral question of

[00:36:49] what are the conditions under which we would be able to restore someone to their good name

[00:36:54] and that's a question that I think we have to take very seriously as Christians in the context of

[00:37:01] the justness of killing it's not just the is it right or appropriate to destroy this person's

[00:37:09] reputation to kill this person on the field of battle what are the subsequent conditions that

[00:37:17] need to be in place for a piece to be established that would bring this person back into a harmonious

[00:37:24] or right relationship with us and I think that that that's very hard to do when we have destroyed

[00:37:33] people's reputations and that makes me want to even be more cautious about doing so right

[00:37:42] which is probably why I think you know like authorized war like as is a principle that exists

[00:37:48] within the just war tradition and I think actually I and I don't develop this but I do

[00:37:53] think I wonder whether something similar does need to be in place here do you think there's

[00:37:58] something is there is something to what you mentioned about Aquinas talking about a good

[00:38:04] reputation could be a deterrent from them acting bad I mean because they don't want to lose their

[00:38:10] reputation and when they don't have it I think about if someone's canceled one way is just like

[00:38:14] all right well now I can just go ballistic it doesn't matter I mean all the consequences are

[00:38:19] gone it could actually make them even worse and so keeping their reputation intact can be a way

[00:38:25] of actually minimizing the damage they do and this is why I think it's important that the norm Jesus

[00:38:30] does lay down for fraternal correction begins with privacy right that you go to a person in private

[00:38:39] and the underlying logic there as Aquinas and I think the medieval's develop it and get it right

[00:38:44] is something like protecting someone's good name is valuable for them and in so far as we

[00:38:52] were able to do that while correcting them we should try to do that now if that fails eventually

[00:38:59] there's this norm of public denunciation where you actually do have to say publicly but I actually

[00:39:06] I mean this is the other challenge to my gossip view is I do not have so Paul you laid out all

[00:39:12] the steps which I think was really helpful that you would have to go through to get to my position

[00:39:18] on gossip one of the steps that you left out that I think we need to slot in somewhere is

[00:39:22] at what point do we publicly denounce this person at what point are we authorized in

[00:39:28] and what's the forum going on Facebook right and saying everyone needs to know that so and so is

[00:39:37] a person like this and has this sort of character I you know I think that that's an

[00:39:43] incredibly hard question and I don't I don't have good answers to it and and there's so much about

[00:39:48] media that shapes are more should shape I think are more reasoning about that type of question

[00:39:55] right do we put it in writing because once things are in writing they follow that person

[00:40:02] in a way in which they don't otherwise but then you know these days everything's on YouTube

[00:40:07] and TikTok right like I if I say anything publicly about anyone the odds that someone is filming me

[00:40:14] while doing so are decent and so like how do you publicly denounce someone for bad action

[00:40:22] in ways that don't turn it into you the type of globalized destruction of the person's reputation

[00:40:31] not only in that community but everywhere they could possibly go on this earth forever and ever

[00:40:38] on men like that's very disproportionate to a lot of wrong wrong acts right like and so I the public

[00:40:48] denunciation piece of this is is a real problem I mean you're making me never want to ever engage

[00:40:54] in defamatory speech against anyone just because there's it seems like there's so many ways that

[00:40:58] it can go wrong and so much that you have to do upstream to make sure you don't do something bad

[00:41:02] downstream and it might just be that it's so complicated that no individual should ever make

[00:41:07] this calculus on their own and even even interesting at the church leadership might be too much I

[00:41:13] don't know I mean depends on your view of how you think church structure should work and if

[00:41:16] you think like bishops need to get involved or like what the proper chain of authority should

[00:41:20] look like but it's definitely not something that an individual can do on their own just because

[00:41:25] you're not going to have the kind of perspective necessary to get all of the relevant information

[00:41:29] and make sure all the boxes that have been checked and make sure that the downstream

[00:41:33] repercussions are not worse than the initial whatever or make sure that you're not going

[00:41:36] to do more damage to their reputation that will actually incentivize further bad behavior

[00:41:40] and there's so much that can go wrong out of your hands when you do this thing but

[00:41:44] maybe this is just a practical caution against ever engaging in this on your own and so

[00:41:50] that seems right I think if you're trying to like deter people away from doing this by showing

[00:41:56] how many ways it could go wrong when you try to take into your own hands I think that that

[00:41:59] case is really strong it's kind of terrifying. But when does it go right? I'm trying to think

[00:42:04] the reason that the policy of like 24-hour no gossip whatever that whole thing was is just

[00:42:11] I mean you think about I do think this is overblown and I think there's bad actors on both

[00:42:16] sides about sort of the whistleblower culture and like here's what's going on behind the scenes

[00:42:21] of this church and then turns out it was right and then their heroes and they were brave but then

[00:42:25] there can also be the the dark side of that where people are genuinely slandering institutions,

[00:42:30] slandering churches because they have bad motives and all that stuff. But when does it

[00:42:38] a positive case sounds like when you know okay the pastor's embezzling funds okay there's a

[00:42:44] sexual predator you know in this congregation and we've got to for the sake of protecting kids

[00:42:52] ruin his reputation. I mean those are some of the extremes that are coming on mind

[00:42:56] would those be times when it's proper to gossip? I'm trying to get just like a concrete

[00:43:03] when does this actually work? When is it actually a good idea? I don't ever want to say that

[00:43:12] Paul is right once much less twice. Come on Matt say it we're recording this for posterity. I'm going

[00:43:21] to use this in my tenure application. Yeah that would be like that's amazing. That will not help you

[00:43:29] anywhere. Me saying that you're right is only a net negative in most court. Just set up certain laws.

[00:43:37] Yeah but I do actually think that the principle of like just never that Paul developed like just

[00:43:45] don't do this is attractive. But I do think it is probably untenable Brian because of those

[00:43:54] types of situations that you mentioned and the fact that sometimes they are real and people

[00:44:00] find themselves in them they have to do something. I do think that if we are thinking about reputation

[00:44:09] as a type of killing then you think like there's some sort of proportionate

[00:44:18] like calculus right? Some criteria of proportionality that we would apply such that the act

[00:44:25] that we are undertaking this for has to be sufficiently grave in its badness and people's

[00:44:34] you know lives have to be sufficiently imperiled that we would be willing to do it right?

[00:44:43] There's some sort of interesting paradox here where the less serious

[00:44:50] the wrong is the more open the offender might be to fraternal correction on it

[00:44:57] and so the less need there would be for getting to the gossip stage right? The more serious

[00:45:04] the wrong that I discover the more is at stake for the wrongdoer and the harder it might be for

[00:45:12] them to receive fraternal correction well and successfully because if they've been engaging

[00:45:17] in a secret wrong for a long time and hurting people but it hasn't come to light their

[00:45:27] position is on the line you know for a lot of people in these cases it's their livelihoods

[00:45:32] that matters the most. It's my job everything that I have done for 15-20 years to get to this

[00:45:39] place I'm going to lose it all and they will respond with a sense of desperation because

[00:45:46] they don't know what they would do otherwise and they you know they're going to lose their house

[00:45:54] everything that they have and so their openness to fraternal correction is very low as a result

[00:46:00] it's very hard for them at that sort of place to say oh yes I see that I have been engaging in

[00:46:07] bad conduct for this long and now let me repent and be contrite and publicly sort of acknowledge

[00:46:13] my wrongs in these sorts of ways their tendency is going to be to clamp down and carry on and try to

[00:46:20] protect what they have built and that's going to be more dangerous to other parties and so the

[00:46:29] need for public denunciation on the one side gossip on the other goes up in that sort of

[00:46:34] cases so it does feel like you called them extreme circumstances Brian but those are the

[00:46:41] sorts of cases that I think actually have to occur for this to work the other thing I want to

[00:46:48] say is like you got to have knowledge and I don't you know like I don't do epistemology so I'm not

[00:46:55] going to tell anyone what that is I leave that to other more qualified people but you cannot

[00:47:02] just suspect someone of wrongdoing like that's whatever the the gap is between suspicion

[00:47:09] and knowledge you've got to be able to say no no I know that this wrongdoing is occurring

[00:47:16] if you're getting past the fraternal correction stage and defaming them to a third party right

[00:47:23] if you suspect someone of wrongdoing then I think you go to them directly and say

[00:47:28] I really suspect that you are engaging in this wrongdoing tell me I'm wrong show me

[00:47:33] what the evidence is here but if you're going to reach the sort of farther stages of this

[00:47:38] I think you've got to know and that is that's its own check on some of the types of situations

[00:47:46] that we've seen in the church because I think there's lots of people who have made allegations and

[00:47:53] operated towards church leaders on the basis of suspicion

[00:47:58] and that that's its own sort of deep moral problem I think it is you know you think

[00:48:03] about the Old Testament law how much how important is to have two or three witnesses

[00:48:06] and because it's like all right yeah I mean if this works out and you're right

[00:48:13] we're killing the guy and then if you think about that you're like whoa okay actually

[00:48:17] I want to really make sure and then there's also a consequence of a false witness too

[00:48:20] like I think in those cases where one you better be absolutely sure as far as that can take you

[00:48:28] as reasonable as you can but then I think you have to be ready if you're wrong

[00:48:32] the restitution the repairing I mean it may be impossible but there's got to be a high bar for

[00:48:37] that too of like we just got it wrong with this person and yeah there's we have to do something

[00:48:45] equally as you know repentant I guess or equally as whatever restitution wise to

[00:48:55] to what we were charging him with yeah I think that's right on the other side of it the

[00:49:01] burden is on church leadership to embrace transparency in such a way that it's very easy to know

[00:49:08] that's true wrongdoing is occurring right so I think Paul when in one of the Corinthians I

[00:49:15] forget which one this is bad of me but you know he's I think it's second grade needs he's taking

[00:49:19] money with him and I forget who he brings along but he brings along someone with him

[00:49:26] yeah seemingly unnecessarily and it's basically like I I want to be so transparent here I he

[00:49:35] actually says in the passage that he wants to do what's honorable in the sight of men yeah

[00:49:43] not only in the sight of God and he brings along this additional person while he's carrying money

[00:49:49] with him I think simply for the purpose of having someone be to be able to testify

[00:49:54] Paul did not steal the money he's not in it for the coin like he brought all of the money from

[00:50:01] this church to that church it all made it 100% and that's that's a sort of principle of transparency

[00:50:10] that invites accountability right and makes fraternal correction from the laity very easy

[00:50:20] because they will have a high degree of trust because Paul has brought this person along and

[00:50:27] if anything does go wrong they'll be able to see it right so I think it's a really

[00:50:34] you're right people have to know but I want to put the responsibility on both sides I don't

[00:50:40] think anyone's exempt here so I'm really fun at parties I just I hang out with me

[00:50:50] here all the ways in which someone tries to gossip to you and you just do this and then you end up

[00:50:55] shutting down all gossips like we're not gossiping to Matt anymore he just oh yeah no one talks to

[00:50:59] me about anything which is great well outside but it's actually it's fascinating because

[00:51:07] people who gossip a lot have a lot of power so this is the other this is the other thing that

[00:51:13] that we have to realize about gossip is people who gossip a lot inside of institutions that

[00:51:19] knowledge is currency and they will be at the center of social relationships and have

[00:51:27] collect power by virtue of their knowledge and to not gossip to not participate in these forms

[00:51:33] of speech is deeply disempowering it will effectively self-marginalize you from these types

[00:51:40] of communities and that that's I think a really important effect of this speech and is the

[00:51:49] hardest part of it absolutely and it bonds people to get you you mentioned this in your

[00:51:53] in your paper about how it creates strong bonds between the gossipers they fit it's the

[00:51:58] whole entering thing I think you mentioned that was the source where it is there's an incentive to

[00:52:04] partake in gossip because of the bonds it can form and the advancement it can give you within a

[00:52:10] professional setting or institution and it's like it's like it works that's like the worst

[00:52:15] thing you know it works and it's reinforced and yeah it's just it's it's terrible and then

[00:52:23] I guess that's where that moral courage and formation comes in where you have to be the one

[00:52:27] to say I can't do it like that's I'm going to pay that cost to not participate in this kind of

[00:52:36] wrongdoing yeah I'm willingly going to be on the margins of this community I'm going to be on the

[00:52:41] outer ring and I recognize I'm on the outer ring and not a part of the inner ring and

[00:52:46] I'm just gonna be okay with that like that's that's gonna be my path forward and I'll learn a lot

[00:52:51] less but about what's happening behind the scenes and what people are doing but that's okay so part

[00:52:57] of the corrective to this problem is I think you were just hinting at it this individual level

[00:53:03] developing a virtues courage to say the right things you know not developing the vice of

[00:53:10] curiosity and sort of the bad way and like wanting to hear all the weird yeah interesting

[00:53:15] little bits of information that you don't need to hear just because it's a way to kill time and

[00:53:19] so that there's like an individual level solution just cultivate virtue and then there's the more

[00:53:24] communal level okay we need better accountability structures we perhaps need better transparency

[00:53:30] norms between leadership and the laity how do we like do you have any practical steps for how

[00:53:38] churches can begin developing these more communal level solutions or how can we cultivate the

[00:53:47] culture of normalizing fraternal correction or are we just being sort of philosophers here or do you

[00:53:53] think that there's any practical wisdom that you can impart to the everyday person on the ground

[00:54:00] no that was easy all right yeah that's basically right I mean I do ethics you want me to solve

[00:54:09] all your problems I mean I feel the same way but I thought I don't know I thought maybe the

[00:54:13] ologians had they're a little bit closer on the ground maybe you guys have more and more in touch

[00:54:18] with your pastoral dimension I think I should be I because I because I actually do believe

[00:54:25] in the need for imaginative and creative proposals of this sort and for the need for people like me

[00:54:33] to walk alongside churches but because of just dispositionally the way I work through so many

[00:54:40] of these issues if I I tend to be reactive in the sense that like give me a church let me

[00:54:48] go in and think with the church about what's happening and come up with ideas and I no church

[00:54:54] has called me to do that on this project which is fine you know like you're a gossip consultant

[00:54:59] now yeah a gossip consultant yeah that's where the big bucks is this is finally I will make some

[00:55:07] money um no but but I mean like the there's all sorts of ways in which leadership

[00:55:20] I think the formation of leadership to be amenable to an open to fraternal correction themselves

[00:55:28] and to make that a part of their culture is and to invite that even from the laity

[00:55:39] I think that that would go a long ways towards creating a culture of fraternal correction right

[00:55:46] the being regularly in touch with I know there's all sorts of like cliches oh I sinned

[00:55:53] more by the time I sort of got out of bed this morning than my kids you know dead right like

[00:56:03] these sorts of cliches about how much we sin get thrown around all the time but they usually

[00:56:08] don't have a lot of specificity and trying to be really specific with ourselves inviting God into

[00:56:16] the courts of our conscience and allowing him to judge us and being able to say with Paul

[00:56:23] no like I don't have anything against myself which is something he says in

[00:56:27] to the Corinthians right like I've scrutinized myself actually and I I don't have anything

[00:56:33] against myself but I'm not even the one who judges myself God judges me right the regular

[00:56:39] process of putting ourselves beneath that court of conscience makes us amenable to fraternal

[00:56:45] correction ourselves because then when someone comes to us and says by the way you did that it

[00:56:51] really hurt me be like the least surprising thing that someone could tell me about myself right like

[00:56:59] I think yeah I bet I did hurt you because I'm the sort of person that does hurt others and

[00:57:06] I've seen that about myself and I've seen ways in which I've done that and so I'm not surprised

[00:57:11] here and that type of self scrutiny and culture of internal fraternal correction where we meet

[00:57:18] God in that sort of way seems really important to cultivating the willingness to be fraternal

[00:57:23] corrected which is a prerequisite to fraternally correcting others in a healthy way right this

[00:57:30] is this is the plank in your eye principle you have to scrutinize yourself before you go to

[00:57:36] another and correct them and so again that comes back to you what sort of moral formation are we

[00:57:44] asking our pastors to undertake are we asking our leaders to undertake so it's not really an

[00:57:49] escape from the virtue answer to this but I do think that a lot of it starts there for

[00:58:00] churches and leaderships it's really about pastors embracing forms of spiritual ascesis

[00:58:07] formation that make this a regular part of their lives do you think going going back to like

[00:58:14] you know a member of a church going to their pastor they're going to have to reveal some things

[00:58:20] but they're looking to get some clarity on it do you think that that should be a more widespread

[00:58:26] thing or more understood thing like I almost wonder if that were more of a regular thing like

[00:58:31] you can have a not to actually in the Roman Catholic sense of a confessional but you could

[00:58:36] have a time and understood time within the culture of your church that you can go to an elder a pastor

[00:58:40] a trusted you know person who you know is not going to gossip and whatever that they could

[00:58:45] actually serve as a way to stem you doing that with your friends and people that would be

[00:58:51] more let me less responsible that you almost kind of think about like the purge you know

[00:58:55] I mean like you one day where everyone can commit all their crimes that everyone but maybe

[00:58:59] it's a terrible example but I mean you know what I'm saying I don't know what the purge is so now

[00:59:03] I'm very I've actually just Wikipedia the plot I haven't actually seen the movie that's the most

[00:59:07] Brian it's just seen that's absolutely true I haven't seen Pirates of the Caribbean there I said

[00:59:13] so I haven't seen it no idea what your inside jokes were on that so but um well yeah I mean

[00:59:19] do you think that bringing back some sort of place where people can be that transparent in a

[00:59:25] to coin the term a safe space where they know that what they're saying will not harm the it will

[00:59:30] be used with prudence by a trusted person but they also can gain the counsel that they need

[00:59:37] is that a practical way to just open that up a little more yeah I'd love to see that sort of

[00:59:42] thing happen I mean one central challenge there is people don't trust their pastors

[00:59:47] so much of the the process of this of processing these situations has been outsourced to therapists

[00:59:56] and counselors that actually people don't go to their pastors for counsel in this sort of way

[01:00:06] and I think that that is a deep problem now I think actually in certain respects that's okay

[01:00:12] because we haven't done a very good job of forming pastors to counsel well and effectively in these

[01:00:17] sorts of ways like I do think actually hopefully one thing if someone has listened to all of this

[01:00:24] they've come away with is kind of what Paul said like the distinctions that can be brought to bear

[01:00:29] here are many and the degree of difficulty is very high and a pastor who hasn't really thought

[01:00:36] about all of these issues with this sort of sensitivity might not be very well equipped to

[01:00:41] counsel in this sort of way and to provide guidance and direction and that's its own problem

[01:00:48] but I do think actually retrieving or recovering some sort of sense of the pastor as counselor

[01:00:55] as someone who is trained in moral theology to provide guidance and to be a sounding board

[01:01:03] would would would help people to know how to navigate some of these very hard situations

[01:01:10] where you know the sort of the counselor that they go to who's helping them with their marriage

[01:01:15] or their lives and other respects or their therapist actually don't work in this sort of

[01:01:20] way right like the therapist is going to try to think about like well how are you in the midst

[01:01:27] of all of this what's like are you taking care of yourself are you cultivating this this sort of

[01:01:34] sense of differentiation or whatever the language is right like how are you that's going to be what

[01:01:38] they're going to focus on they're not equipped to help answer the question what should I do

[01:01:46] right should I denounce this person publicly or not any therapist who tries to answer that

[01:01:51] question is stepping well outside their the boundaries of how they're trained and

[01:01:56] what they're authorized to do and so it's there's a real gap here no one is authorized or equipped

[01:02:05] to handle some of these situations and that's fine actually like in one respect like maybe no one

[01:02:12] should be trained to do this and we just have to learn it occasionally but I don't know

[01:02:20] I want I want someone to think about it who's not me so it's kind of like we really should be careful

[01:02:27] about when we can just leave gossip and we got to think through it all the way

[01:02:32] and be trained and if we're not ready to do that we should probably just have something of a permanent

[01:02:38] ban on it you know yeah until we're kind of mature enough to do it but we can't just

[01:02:45] say that it's never proper and maybe you know that that's don't let don't let children play with guns

[01:02:51] there you go here you go you we just don't do it right the and and the tongue is a spark that can

[01:02:58] light a fire right like the imagery death in life are in the hands of the tongue says proper it was

[01:03:05] like you know we don't let we don't let children play with guns we shouldn't let those who are

[01:03:12] immature in the faith make their own decisions or make decisions about how they speak about some of

[01:03:18] these types of situations because it takes a lot of wisdom that's well said man thanks i'm really fun

[01:03:24] at parties yeah yeah me to your party i'll be i'll be pleasant we'll figure out things to talk

[01:03:29] about you can talk about trawl up or something enjoyable as someone who's actually been to parties

[01:03:34] with matt i can attest he's not always like this he's actually i do feel like such a scold

[01:03:40] when i talk about some of this stuff and i don't know it's it's super helpful and you're part of your

[01:03:45] you're part of your own solution of normalizing and creating this culture of fraternal correction and

[01:03:50] you know bringing theological insights to bear on personal application so i think it's i think

[01:03:55] it's great thank you thank you that's very kind well paul once told me you know since paul is a

[01:04:02] moral philosopher he told me that he hates going to hollywood because there's so many bad actors

[01:04:10] wow that was really bad oh yeah wow thank you but that's i mean there's that's true in all sorts of

[01:04:16] ways i paul this is just now that we're wrapping up someone passed me i was looking for it i don't

[01:04:22] have it in front of me but it's just worth remembering that as james gustafson who is a

[01:04:29] christian ethicist at the university of chicago apparently said once a moral theologian

[01:04:36] is a former theologian who lacks the professional credibility of a moral philosopher so you know

[01:04:44] if people if people want to rank where i stand on this podcast

[01:04:52] a former theologian who lacks the moral the the credibility of paul it's a great game i i'll

[01:04:59] hear endothelia i know sometimes i just sometimes i just i just uh name different disciplines in

[01:05:06] university and just watch for paul's facial reaction and i can tell what he thinks about this you know

[01:05:11] it's hilarious and uh he just he just he can't even hide it there's no there's no guile in in paul

[01:05:17] he just he is true yeah it's all there matt thank you for joining us on the show this is a great

[01:05:22] discussion and i'll put a link to mere fidelity and and all that stuff but uh this was a great

[01:05:28] great time and we're appreciative of uh you spend your time with us today thank you guys this was a

[01:05:33] lot of fun appreciate it