Should We Baptize Babies? with Dr. Steve Wellum

[00:00:00] If you're thinking about baptism either for yourself or for your family,

[00:00:03] you're gonna want to check out this episode because we get into the controversial debate over the proper subjects of baptism.

[00:00:11] We have Dr. Steve Wellum from Southern Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky,

[00:00:15] joining us to make the case that baptism is only for men and women who make a credible profession of faith.

[00:00:22] And that's over and against the theology of the reformers like John Calvin and Martin Luther.

[00:00:28] We're going to talk about the history and theological significance of baptism,

[00:00:31] as well as the practical importance it holds for the church as a discipleship tool.

[00:00:36] Reform Baptists and Presbyterians both appreciate the role of the natural

[00:00:40] and spiritual family in raising Christians, but they differ on the role that baptism plays.

[00:00:46] Both traditions also recognize the significance of covenants as a theological category

[00:00:51] that helps us make sense of the relationship between the Old and the New Testaments,

[00:00:55] the Covenant of Grace, the Abrahamic Covenant, the New Covenant, things like that.

[00:01:00] So we're going to discuss that as well as common objections to credo baptism or believers only baptism,

[00:01:06] and we're going to talk about some ways we can think about baptism that can help

[00:01:09] enrich and encourage the church. This is a great conversation. Hope you guys enjoy this episode.

[00:01:22] You are listening to That'll Preach. Today on the show we have

[00:01:26] Dr. Steve Wellum. He's the editor of the Southern Baptist Journal of Theology.

[00:01:31] He's also professor of Christian theology at Southern Theological Seminary.

[00:01:36] He's written a number of books, including Kingdom through Covenant,

[00:01:39] a Biblical theological understanding of the Covenants, as well as Systematic Theology Volume

[00:01:44] 1 from Canon to Concept just got released. Steve, we're really glad to have you on the show.

[00:01:49] Thanks for coming on.

[00:01:50] Brian, really privileged to be with you today.

[00:01:53] So I wanted you on because I wanted to talk about baptism, and you've written

[00:01:57] a few articles, a few chapters and books about that topic. And to me, baptism is one of those

[00:02:03] practical doctrines in the church that's just the tip of the iceberg. What you think about

[00:02:08] baptism is built on this edifice of all these other things you think about the whole Bible

[00:02:12] and all these types of things. Before the show we talked about how I'm credo Baptist,

[00:02:18] and I'm at a credo Baptist church just like you are, but I went to a pedo Baptist seminary.

[00:02:24] I went to reform theological seminary, Orlando had a great time there, but this was one of the

[00:02:29] rubs being there. And I remember being in a particular class and I was asked who are the

[00:02:37] Baptists in the room. So I raised my hand and I was unwittingly pitted against another student

[00:02:44] who had definitely thought about it way more than me, and we were kind of presenting our

[00:02:50] cases for a respective baptism positions. And that was my first foray into being like, oh wow,

[00:02:56] being, I thought I was reformed, I'm not really reformed, I'm fake reformed with credo baptism.

[00:03:03] But that's why I've appreciated your writings because they've helped me be able to defeat all

[00:03:11] of those pedo Baptists with pure force of logic and reasoning, which is what the point of your

[00:03:16] writings are for, I'm sure. But no, I think you've been a very helpful resource on baptism.

[00:03:23] Now, based on all the stuff that you've written and the work you've done on baptism,

[00:03:27] just give us a little bit of your own biographical story with what got you interested in writing

[00:03:33] on baptism and working on the topic of baptism. Yeah, I mean, it really goes back to my

[00:03:42] upbringing and being raised in a Christian home, and I was raised in a Baptist setting.

[00:03:49] So we all start somewhere, I mean, some start in the Presbyterian, others the Baptist. So I

[00:03:53] didn't have much of a choice. My parents took me there. But as I was taught in faithful

[00:04:01] exposition of Scripture, taught theology and then was converted at 16 years old,

[00:04:07] I came to say, I think the scripture does defend a believer Baptist, a credo Baptist position.

[00:04:16] And a lot of that was just defaulted went off to Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.

[00:04:20] And there at Trinity, which was in the 1980s 90s, I still think it was the

[00:04:27] premier sort of evangelical institution. We had people across the spectrum,

[00:04:34] people that would be credo Baptist, pedo Baptist, probably more credo than anything. But we had a

[00:04:41] variety of people as long as they could sign the statement of faith. And so there wasn't a whole

[00:04:45] lot of emphasis at Trinity on ecclesiology and the ordinances. They were really focused on

[00:04:53] the doctrine of Scripture and defending historic Christianity and Christian faith and so on.

[00:04:58] So when I went to teach at a Baptist school in 1996, I was hired as the Baptist professor

[00:05:09] of theology. And I said, I better think about these issues a bit more. And so that,

[00:05:15] you know, what are the Baptist distinctives? How do I defend them? And then I was asked to

[00:05:19] write an article in a book called The Compromised Church in the end of the 90s. And I was

[00:05:24] supposed to write on mere baptism. So I was supposed to argue that baptism is important, but

[00:05:30] we could have a kind of mere baptism that would cover both believer and infant baptism. And I,

[00:05:36] at that time, even though I was a Baptist, I thought, well, I could do that. And then as I got into

[00:05:41] writing the article, I realized my goodness, my Baptist convictions, but also as I begin to

[00:05:47] understand the pedo Baptist position more, that I can't have a mere baptism. I mean,

[00:05:53] these views are not saying the same thing. They don't mean the same thing by baptism,

[00:05:58] the arguments that they're making are different. And so, you know, I had to really think through

[00:06:05] that issue there very carefully. So that's where I began to really think about baptism in its full

[00:06:14] orb sense and making sure that, you know, I thought through the issue and that began

[00:06:20] a whole set of looking at the issue and wrestling with it and thinking through it theologically.

[00:06:28] Well, I can see why writing that article would have been quite the eye-opening experience. And

[00:06:33] it is true. It's amazing, even though you have so much in common with pedo-Baptist,

[00:06:37] you know, brothers and sisters, and, you know, we share a lot in common in the faith,

[00:06:42] this is no small thing. Talk about the importance of that debate. You kind of touched on a

[00:06:48] little bit. You realized, okay, these are mutually exclusive views. Why is it important that we get

[00:06:55] baptism right? Well, I mean, I think the primary reason, I mean, the most important reason is,

[00:07:00] is that it's bound up with the Lord Jesus' command to the church so that He has given us the Great

[00:07:09] Commission. He is saying, go and make disciples, baptize them, right? As you make disciples,

[00:07:15] baptize them in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father, Son, and Spirit. And so it's crucial

[00:07:22] that at the heart of the church we know what baptism is. And if we differ in baptism, we're not

[00:07:29] getting the command of our Lord correct. So I mean, that's the most fundamental reason

[00:07:34] why baptism is so significant. And then in addition to that, understanding what baptism is,

[00:07:41] connecting it to the meaning of it tied to the gospel itself. Baptism is not only a visible

[00:07:47] entry into the church, but it's a visible proclamation of the gospel. So we want to make sure that our

[00:07:53] understanding of baptism actually is true to Scripture. It's true to our Lord's command.

[00:07:58] It's true to the mission of the church and it actually communicates and proclaims the gospel.

[00:08:04] How would you give a working definition for baptism? And then maybe you could walk us through

[00:08:10] what pedo-baptists, people who practice infant baptism, how they come to their conclusions,

[00:08:15] kind of giving a better sense of how they would understand the biblical witness with regard to

[00:08:22] baptism. Yeah. I mean, I think at the heart of baptism, I mean, a definition of first we say it's

[00:08:28] a command of the Lord Jesus, right? So that's why we argue that it's an ordinance. It's a

[00:08:32] command of the Lord Jesus that signifies that one has, in particular to union with Christ,

[00:08:40] one is now a Christian. One has faith in Christ. One has died with Christ, been buried with Christ,

[00:08:48] with raised with Christ. So I'm picking up union with Christ. It signifies that that is true

[00:08:52] of that person who is making now a visible public statement that I am now a Christian.

[00:09:00] I testify to what God has done in my life. I am united to Christ. He is my Lord and Savior.

[00:09:07] I've come into relationship with the triune God, and I am now a member of the New Covenant with

[00:09:14] all of the rights and privileges in some sense pertaining there too. So baptism signifies

[00:09:20] that one is a believer, one is a member of the New Covenant, and one is now a member of the

[00:09:25] church. So for a person who practices infant baptism, they're going to disagree with

[00:09:33] aspects of that, right? What is the case for infant baptism? Yeah, so I think when we

[00:09:39] think of infant baptism and of course in the Reformed view, I do think they want to keep

[00:09:46] consistent what baptism signifies both for infants and also those who are believers,

[00:09:54] right? Yet it seems to look a little different. But so when you come to an infant baptism, for them,

[00:10:02] baptism is the sign of the Covenant. And in that case, they're particularly tying this

[00:10:09] to the Covenant of Grace, which are tied to the New Covenant, but in particular the Covenant

[00:10:13] of Grace, that it's an objective sign and the objective sign is very important

[00:10:18] that one is now in the Covenant and in the case of baptism in the church. So one is objectively

[00:10:26] in the visible church, one is a member of that church. Yet it is also, and it's a sign and seal

[00:10:34] of the promises of God that are made, that if one believes in the Lord Jesus, right,

[00:10:40] then one will receive salvation. So it is an objective sign that's one's in the Covenant

[00:10:45] and it points to ultimately the need for conversion, right? Conversion as circumcision of

[00:10:51] heart. It does not guarantee that one is regenerate. So you have other views outside of the Reformed

[00:10:58] view such as Catholics and Lutherans and so on that will view it as regenerative. No,

[00:11:03] it's an objective sign that one is in the Covenant, a member of the Covenant but not

[00:11:07] necessarily of the Covenant. That requires that one be regenerate, saving faith in Christ

[00:11:13] who appoints to the need for that to be the case. And in some sense they will say, in some sense we're

[00:11:19] united to Christ but of course they have to talk a little differently about being in Christ

[00:11:26] but not fully of the Covenant and of all of the benefits of that new Covenant. Now,

[00:11:32] how do they make that case? The difficulty first with the case, and we'll come back to defend

[00:11:38] believers' baptism but this is difficult from the New Testament. The New Testament,

[00:11:43] everywhere you see baptism it's tied to repentance, faith, it signifies union with Christ, death,

[00:11:52] burial, resurrection that one is born of the Spirit, justified, one is savingly united to

[00:11:58] Christ. Well, of course it doesn't signify that for infant baptism so the New Testament seems to

[00:12:03] say that. So where do they get their view? Well, they will now argue an entire argument

[00:12:08] across the can and particularly it's a Covenantal argument and that's what you'd expect to reform

[00:12:14] theology is strongly arguing in terms of three main Covenants. From eternity you have the plan

[00:12:21] of God, the Covenant of Redemption that works itself out in history. You have the Covenant

[00:12:26] of Works that's with Adam that's broken and then you have the Covenant of Grace which is

[00:12:32] God now providing redemption ultimately in Christ. That Covenant of Grace is an overarching

[00:12:39] covenant that begins in Genesis 315 where you have that initial gospel promise and all the

[00:12:45] Covenants of Scripture so it's whether Noaik, particularly Abrahamic, Mosaic,

[00:12:52] Davidic, New Covenant are all under that larger rubric of the Covenant of Grace. So when one

[00:12:59] is saved by grace through faith, one is brought into the Covenant community and one is now a member

[00:13:05] of that and so that's the larger rubric they make and then of course appeal is made to the

[00:13:10] Abrahamic Covenant. So the Abrahamic Covenant where you first have circumcision. Circumcision

[00:13:16] is given as a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. It's an objective sign that brings them into

[00:13:22] that Covenant and then in Israel it brings them into the nation of Israel. It's placed upon

[00:13:27] the first onto the male child as a sign of that to signify that they are in that Covenant,

[00:13:34] that they're a Covenant member and it's given to them throughout then Abraham to Israel ultimately

[00:13:42] to David and it signifies that one is part of that Covenant community. You need still

[00:13:49] regeneration and then as it moves to the New Testament the Covenant of Grace is unified but

[00:13:56] the administration of it changes and this is how they allow for changes from Covenant to Covenant

[00:14:02] type of thing but it's all one Covenant of Grace so that the substance of the Covenant which is

[00:14:07] ultimately tied to Christ and the promises of salvation but even then the Covenant signs,

[00:14:13] the signs may change administratively so from Abraham to Mosaic Covenant to New Covenant

[00:14:20] circumcision changes to baptism but the sign of the Covenant still signifies the same

[00:14:28] truth because it's part of the larger Covenant of Grace so thus if you baptize infants in terms of

[00:14:37] or circumcised infants in terms of the Abrahamic Covenant you then can baptize

[00:14:43] children in terms of the New Covenant because it's all part of the Covenant of Grace. The

[00:14:48] sign has changed, the administration has changed but it still signifies then baptism that one is in

[00:14:54] the Covenant objectively one needs to still believe so it points to the need for say circumcision of

[00:15:02] heart so it points to that need and then hopefully that child who is now in the Covenant

[00:15:09] moves from being in the Covenant to becoming of the Covenant by saving faith,

[00:15:14] repentance, conversion and so on and that takes place differently in terms of that child

[00:15:20] and often in terms of confirmation. So that's the larger rubric and then of course tied to

[00:15:25] that larger Covenant of Grace is the similarity of the people of God so the Israel as Israel

[00:15:33] as the people of God is similar in terms of its structure to the church so just as you had

[00:15:39] within the nation of Israel believers and unbelievers believers and their children

[00:15:44] so that same visible structure continues in the church under the one rubric of the Covenant of

[00:15:50] Grace. I mean that's the basic argument that they give and tied to that probably one last thing

[00:15:57] to be said is what I call the genealogical principle so that Warfield said years ago

[00:16:03] God placed children in the Covenant and that isn't going to change there's no evidence that

[00:16:07] that change is across redemptive history so what happened in the Abrahamic Covenant what was seen

[00:16:12] in the Mosaic Covenant also is true of the new Covenant because it's the one Covenant of Grace

[00:16:17] so God places our biological children under the Covenant by the sign of the Covenant and then

[00:16:24] we pray that they are regenerated and they come to saving faith. I mean that's the basic

[00:16:30] points of the argument and then various texts are tried to made to justify that kind of

[00:16:35] understanding. So there's a lot of continuity in that model where Abraham circumcised his kids

[00:16:42] circumcision was a sign of a promise new covenant believers baptized their kids because baptism

[00:16:48] is a sign of the promise and they see a continuity there. That was a very helpful way of laying it

[00:16:52] out you know this is funny because I think about when I took Covenant theology at RTS loved

[00:17:00] it great class learned a ton we had it with with Lake Duncan and he's like the Covenant theology guy

[00:17:05] and it was mind-blowing and I remember going up to him after class and I was like Dr. Duncan this is

[00:17:09] amazing stuff I'm learning so much how much of this can I believe without baptizing infants

[00:17:15] and he didn't even like answer me he just laughed that was so funny and you know and so to me I was

[00:17:20] always kind of like that that insight made me realize what you think about the whole thing

[00:17:27] really affects what you think about this specific thing in baptism and you know I would

[00:17:34] most baptism I mean you know Southern seminaries is broadly Calvinistic or reformed although I'm

[00:17:41] sure Presbyterians might disagree with that and certainly I think a lot of reformed Baptists

[00:17:48] owe a lot to the Westminster Confession and you know Presbyterians of the past and all

[00:17:53] that stuff but that that idea the Covenant of Grace it does have this very strong internal logic

[00:17:59] now how do we approach that as Baptists who appreciate a lot of reformed satiriology appreciate

[00:18:06] even the concept of Covenants progressive revelation you know typology all these types of things

[00:18:13] if you're a Baptist how do you approach this system of Covenant theology yeah no I

[00:18:20] you're exactly right we have to approach it very carefully and we have so much in common don't we

[00:18:25] and that's what makes it difficult because we say well we agree so much in common why don't we go

[00:18:28] all the way so so I try to say it in the sense that and this is where I wrote even in my

[00:18:35] systematic theology the subtitle was from canon to concept and what I'm getting at there is

[00:18:42] the relationship of biblical theology which tries to understand how the whole canon fits

[00:18:48] together to then our theological conclusions so so what my contention is with Covenant theology

[00:18:56] is that this this sort of what they call bicovenental structure so tied to history not not tied to

[00:19:04] the covenant of redemption in in eternity but but tied to the covenant of works the covenant

[00:19:09] of grace this bicovenal construction is so so helpful but it's not quite right it's not quite

[00:19:16] consistent with how the Bible itself presents the plan of God and relays out the Covenants and so on

[00:19:24] and so we have to carefully think about that so so what the covenant of works is really doing is I

[00:19:28] think correct I mean I don't disagree with that very much at all it's giving us really you know

[00:19:33] God's initial relationship with Adam he's the Covenant head of the human race he's in a

[00:19:37] probationary state if he perfectly obeys God now promises him life and and there's

[00:19:44] there's a law demand that is there and he fails yet God must now you know thankfully he chooses

[00:19:50] to save us he doesn't have to save us but he chooses to save us and this is where then the

[00:19:54] covenant of grace comes in now everything that the covenant of grace in terms of a theological

[00:20:00] category is is correct what the what it was the covenant of grace trying to give is trying

[00:20:04] to give the outworking of God's eternal plan in terms of the plan of redemption and I like

[00:20:10] to say that the covenant of grace is best understood as that which is grounded in eternity

[00:20:16] tied to the divine decree tied to the covenant of redemption it's God's plan as it unfolds through

[00:20:22] history leading us to that which is of the new covenant the coming of Christ everything is moving

[00:20:27] to him in the new covenant but as you in the terms of the progress of history God unfolds

[00:20:33] his plan through covenants now you say well what's the difference well it's it's all one

[00:20:37] plan so in that sense it's like the covenant of grace but the problem with the covenant of

[00:20:43] grace construction is that it tends to not account for the unfolding of those covenants from Genesis

[00:20:52] 315 the initial promise of salvation and it's a Christological promise one is only saved by

[00:20:57] grace through faith and Christ alone by faith alone and so on which is you know there's no

[00:21:02] two ways of salvation there's one way of salvation in Christ but that Christological promise which

[00:21:08] people would have to lay hold on faith is unfolded through the covenants and those covenants are very

[00:21:13] very important in leading us to that new covenant so that we have to allow the covenants to

[00:21:20] lay forth the plan of God to each contribute to that plan it's one plans one salvation

[00:21:27] but we then cannot sort of take well the Abrahamic covenant is means the exact same type of thing as

[00:21:34] the new covenant or the sign of the Abrahamic covenant is exactly the sign of the new covenant

[00:21:40] all of redemptive history is moving us to Christ all of redemptive history is moving us to the

[00:21:44] new covenant but each of the Old Testament covenants contributes to that leading us to

[00:21:50] the new covenant so when we see that we then have to then say all right let's look where of

[00:21:55] course infam baptism is being grounded in which is the Abrahamic covenant we have to read the Abrahamic

[00:22:02] covenant in its place so I talk about its context and scripture and then see it ultimately in terms of

[00:22:07] the canonical context we have to see the Abrahamic covenant what's it doing in its context

[00:22:13] there right God is choosing Abraham to be the means by which Christ comes out of him will

[00:22:18] come a mighty nation which obviously is the nation of Israel the coming of Messiah that covenant

[00:22:24] or that sign of circumcision is placed externally on his children and of course there

[00:22:30] it's placed on Ishmael it's placed on Isaac it's placed on the sons of Kutura it's placed on all

[00:22:37] those in his household which even then doesn't actually correspond to sort of the practice

[00:22:42] that comes into the New Testament so it's unique there and what's it signifying in its Abrahamic

[00:22:47] context well it signifies that they're set apart to for God in the Abrahamic covenant it's

[00:22:53] I think in the Old Testament context it's a priestly sign it's putting a priestly sign upon

[00:22:57] them that these are my people there to be ultimately as comes Israel a kingdom of priests who dwell

[00:23:03] before God it signifies that but as you let the covenants unfold it becomes very clear that

[00:23:10] that external sign requires more of an internal reality right and Moses is telling them this

[00:23:17] in the Pentateuch that the external sign is not enough it sets them apart from the other nations

[00:23:23] it makes Israel a holy nation over against the Gentile nations so Messiah can come yet that sign

[00:23:32] points to the need for a new heart a circumcision of hearts so you have the external sign puts

[00:23:40] them into the covenant even in those Abrahamic covenants and the Old Testament covenants

[00:23:44] there is what I call a mixed group there's believers and unbelievers within it that's the

[00:23:48] very constitution of those covenants but as the covenants unfold and look forward to the coming

[00:23:54] of Christ that you and your children and so on does not remain unchanged and of course in

[00:24:02] the reform view it remains constantly the same it points to the need for a new count and

[00:24:07] then we have to look at what is the nature of the new covenant what is the nature of the

[00:24:12] church that's bound up with that new covenant and once we do that we see that there are changes

[00:24:18] that occurred that are God ordained changes that are anticipatory of what happens with Christ

[00:24:23] Christ and his people are not just you and your children Christ and his people are those who are

[00:24:29] now a regenerate people born of the spirit and then the sign which they see is put on them which

[00:24:36] testifies to that now is baptism so there's a difference in the significance the meaning and

[00:24:42] significance of what circumcision is under the Abrahamic covenant and what it is ultimately

[00:24:48] under the new covenant the covenant view tends to just equate the two and to flatten them in

[00:24:56] that way because it's not fundamentally seeing the one plan of God unfold through the covenants

[00:25:02] reaching its fulfillment in the new covenant I think that's how scripture works and that then

[00:25:09] accounts for why baptism does not signify the same thing in the New Testament that circumcision

[00:25:15] signified in the old and when they draw the same meaning and significance of those signs

[00:25:20] there's something amiss because the New Testament does not verify what they are ultimately claiming

[00:25:26] so the big thing that they're the elite that they're making is making

[00:25:30] the sign of the old covenant circumcision mean the same thing as a sign of the new covenant

[00:25:35] baptism and you're saying that there's a progression that they're missing

[00:25:39] when you when you read it that's exactly right so so again so yeah so under the covenant of grace

[00:25:46] really in terms of their view wherever they whenever they get you and your children and

[00:25:50] so on really they're they're taking the Abrahamic covenant what's true there and bringing it

[00:25:56] right over into the new covenant without seeing any fulfillment any God ordained changes that are showing

[00:26:03] the Abrahamic family the nation of Israel as Israel is not exactly the same as the people

[00:26:10] of the new covenant that are the fulfillment people there's change there they don't want to

[00:26:15] see that change now eventually in the end they're going to say every covenant person's

[00:26:19] going to say in the new heavens and earth right in the not yet when Christ comes again

[00:26:23] the church will be a regenerate people so what you baptists are saying

[00:26:28] will be true of the future but the problem is is the new testament as it works itself out

[00:26:33] we'll say the new covenant is here now in principle there is this new regenerate people

[00:26:40] identify with Christ who are you new with Christ born of the spirit justified and so on that

[00:26:47] our yes need to be glorified there's still a not yet but that community is here now which

[00:26:52] is changed from even Abrahamic family it's changed from the nation of Israel in terms of its structure

[00:26:58] it's that change which they are not upholding and so they make the sign circumcision baptism

[00:27:05] mean the same thing even though they're different in terms of their administration

[00:27:09] so what I hear you saying is the future is baptist actually now you're saying the present is

[00:27:13] baptism they're saying the future is baptist right well that's right that's right how would

[00:27:17] you handle though like an axe when it talks about the promises for you your children and

[00:27:22] all those who are called I'm butchering the verse but that was yeah and often cited one of

[00:27:28] saying there you go in acts they're viewing a continuity with the Abrahamic covenant

[00:27:32] and the new covenant promises are to you and your children and those far off as well

[00:27:37] yeah so they take that in terms of their whole understanding of that this the genealogical

[00:27:42] principle remains exactly the same it has not changed so this belongs to you and your

[00:27:46] children and then they assume then that all the households and the same structure takes place

[00:27:52] of course one has to assume and demonstrate all of that of course that runs into problems on how

[00:27:57] the church is described how the new covenants described and even how baptism is described

[00:28:02] so I would take acts two 39 to say this promise is for you this promise is for your children

[00:28:10] what's the promise ultimately that there's repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ

[00:28:15] that he now has brought the promise age to pass if you believe this if your children believe this

[00:28:21] if those who are far off believe this right what happens they enter the church

[00:28:25] they they are brought to you know transfer from Adam to Christ they are brought into covenant

[00:28:32] relationship with the new covenant head and so the promise to you your children and so on

[00:28:38] is that same promise of repentance faith in Christ that's how the conversion is presented in

[00:28:44] the New Testament that's how the church is presented in the New Testament and that's how

[00:28:47] what baptism is ultimately signifying so you can't take that and say oh look there's the children

[00:28:52] and the same structures of the Abrahamic covenant the mosaic covenant under the covenant of grace

[00:28:59] remain the same right even in the Old Testament with the promise of the new covenant the promise

[00:29:05] of the new covenant is that it's going to be a people who all know God it's a people who are

[00:29:11] and then you tie that with Jeremiah 31 you tie it with Ezekiel 36 they are all born of the spirit

[00:29:16] I'll take out hearts of stone I'll put in hearts of flesh Jeremiah 31 34 for I'll forgive their sins

[00:29:22] I'll remember them no more I mean clear this is tied to Christ's work that is finished the

[00:29:28] justification all those are true of those in the new covenant who's in the new covenant

[00:29:33] is the church right I mean so again we can speak of it's not I'm not making a dispensational

[00:29:38] radical distinction between Israel church but we do have to account for Old Testament saints who are

[00:29:44] part of Israel which is a mixed community and the continuity that has with the church the church

[00:29:49] though is not structured the same way as Israel bold and so fundamentally what's at heart here

[00:29:54] is how these covenants unfold how they relate to one another so the covenant of grace notion

[00:30:00] in terms of the plan of God absolutely sometimes I've been misunderstood by saying well we need

[00:30:05] to get rid of the category of the covenant of grace but what I meant by that is ultimately we

[00:30:09] can't just assume your view of that covenant of grace is correct we all believe in the one way

[00:30:13] of salvation we all believe it's grounded in Christ we still have to then say how does scripture

[00:30:18] present that plan and I'm convinced to present it in terms of an unfolding covenants that reaches

[00:30:23] its fulfillment in Christ well it's interesting with the acts to passage about to you and

[00:30:28] your children even a pedo Baptist has to modify it because they're not doing household

[00:30:32] baptisms they're not just baptizing their sons I mean there's always going to be a modification

[00:30:38] there and it seems like just from what you're reading just what you're what you've been talking

[00:30:42] about is if the sign can change in its form and if even even pedo Baptist change the objects

[00:30:51] of the sign because they add women and they don't include household members why can't the

[00:30:56] genealogical principle itself change and I know people say spiritualize in the sort of a derogatory

[00:31:02] term but there's a sense in which if this is a new covenant and it's about the covenant being regenerative

[00:31:09] once you grant that it makes sense you know it all kind of comes together what you mentioned

[00:31:14] the household idea and I've noticed a lot of people who maybe grew a baptist and they become

[00:31:20] pedo Baptist it's not purely a theological decision a lot of it is they have the first kid

[00:31:27] and they start to think about what is my child to God I mean does he view them as just a godless

[00:31:32] pagan does he does he view them in as a Christian how do I there's got to be a status my child is

[00:31:39] not like a child that grows up in a non-christian or secular household and then the pedo baptist

[00:31:45] theology gives a kind of way to reconcile that even though it's not entirely clear to me what a

[00:31:51] baptized infant receives that a non-baptized infant is also not promised I mean the offer the gospel

[00:31:58] would be the same to both but I think just sociologically I think that has been a pull for

[00:32:03] people and I'm kind of curious about that can baptists still maintain a strong household theology

[00:32:10] without having to adopt baptism yeah I think I think you've put your finger I think on

[00:32:18] probably I think they're one of the core pull right towards the infant baptism obviously you

[00:32:23] have the whole history of you know the covenant grace and the formation of the bicovenental structure

[00:32:28] and so on but I think what really what I sense with people is that is that genealogical principle

[00:32:34] is that look under the Old Testament covenants children were put in there you are now taking

[00:32:40] your children out of the covenant that that's inconsistent and where's the place of your

[00:32:46] children if you do not hold to covenant theology and so on and I think you're exactly right that

[00:32:52] is so strong a pull now I think we have to think very carefully about this your comment about

[00:32:57] I'm not sure what the difference is I mean ultimately they're gonna say well

[00:33:02] our children are now in the covenant they're not of the covenant meaning that they're not

[00:33:07] necessarily regenerate so but they're in the covenant externally there's benefit that comes

[00:33:12] from that and so on and and you say fine I mean I understand what that would mean for the

[00:33:17] Abrahamic covenant what that means the mosaic covenant and so on but when we still have to

[00:33:21] look at the realities of the new covenant nobody is in and of the new covenant apart from faith

[00:33:29] in Christ repentance faith new birth and so on that's just the reality of the new covenant so what

[00:33:34] do we do with our children well I mean we have to I don't think there's much practical difference

[00:33:40] actually in terms of how I raised my five children they are raised now with christian parents

[00:33:46] christian parents who are you know believers in Christ united to him and members of the church

[00:33:52] right we are in the church and in in and of the the new covenant if you want to use that

[00:33:58] both that language there and so what's the privilege the children have well they're part of creation

[00:34:03] order right families are part of creation order that will continue to the end of the age

[00:34:08] they're they're god-given gifts they're those who are brought to the church even though they're

[00:34:14] not the church they're not in the covenant they're still in Adam we then call them to

[00:34:19] know their creator to know christ as redeemer we raise them to to to know who the Lord is

[00:34:27] and and the same commands that we would give to them and so on but we're calling them to saving faith

[00:34:33] right we're calling them as we teach them and instruct them to to enter that covenant to not

[00:34:39] be in Adam but to be in Christ so I think that because they are raised by christian parents

[00:34:46] they're raised with other christians and they're brought to the church they're hearing the preaching

[00:34:50] of the gospel they have every blessing that could be bestowed I mean my my one son and his wife

[00:34:59] adopted two foster children and both of them come in and and they came out of very very difficult

[00:35:05] backgrounds and I think of the privilege it is that they now those two children are being

[00:35:09] raised by christian parents they're now hearing the gospel they're now being brought to the

[00:35:15] church and so on and they're being called to saving faith in christ that is the privilege that our children

[00:35:21] have uh and and uh that is um something that um you know you do not have to then go and say well

[00:35:27] now I have to place them in that covenant seems to me if we're not careful with the reformed view

[00:35:32] and many many will deny this and of course you had excellent teachers at rts with league

[00:35:37] Duncan and and and many others right they're going to deny this but there are many many

[00:35:42] in the covenantal view that really assume a kind of presumptive regeneration now not all of them

[00:35:47] but many of them sort of assume well if they're in the covenant they I presume they're regenerate

[00:35:52] until they show otherwise and that is I think a dangerous position because you're really not

[00:35:57] calling to saving faith it's not the logic of the position but it's often the practical default

[00:36:02] of it and there's where we have to be careful and that's why some within the reformed community

[00:36:07] you know move towards more federal vision and this type of thing where they almost play with the word

[00:36:12] regeneration they don't want to say that they're actually regenerate in the full salvific sense

[00:36:17] of that but they begin to play with the word you say be careful with that because those

[00:36:21] children need to know uh the gospel they need to hear the gospel and be called to faith and

[00:36:26] repentance I have noticed that too I'm like what are those non-salvific benefits between a

[00:36:34] Baptist child raised in a faithful church with faithful godly parents and a baptized child but

[00:36:40] baptized infant growing up faithful church with godly parents because I'm just kind of like at the

[00:36:46] end of the day at the bottom of everything are you kind of saying there's a little bit of extra

[00:36:49] salvation energy heading toward that baby and I think it's worse and I know this is obviously I

[00:36:56] think most reformed delusions would would deny this and also recognize the dangers of that

[00:37:01] kind of presumption but at the most it kind of plays on this like superstitious idea of this can

[00:37:08] do something what's fascinating is I think there was a big controversy I think Mark Devere was at

[00:37:13] some conference and he made this comment about how many people will say to Baptist infant baptism

[00:37:20] is a historic practice of the church and one of the things that Devere mentioned and I think

[00:37:24] this is actually true is that so is the idea that the new covenant is filled with believers

[00:37:30] only because there are with the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and some Anglicans and Lutherans

[00:37:37] they actually go yeah new covenants all believers and we believe that infant baptism makes them

[00:37:41] believers it just say they just take the whole thing baptismal regeneration and what's interesting

[00:37:45] is I feel like in the New Testament I mean there's no verse telling you to baptize infants

[00:37:52] but there are some strange verses about how baptism saves you so I feel like there's more

[00:37:56] of a case for baptismal regeneration and just in my looking through church history it seems like the

[00:38:02] progression was it was believers baptism and then there was this sort of baptismal regeneration

[00:38:08] theology that then played into people wanting to be baptized before they die to get their sins

[00:38:14] washed away so then people going wait a minute high infant mortality maybe this go work on them

[00:38:19] and then the practice starts to happen now I'm not a church history historian but

[00:38:25] the baptismal theology the baptismal regeneration that does seem to be sort of something that's

[00:38:29] always creeping the background like if we're not talking about that I'm not exactly sure

[00:38:34] what these benefits are that we're talking about. I think you're exactly right and I mean

[00:38:40] the case has been made no doubt infant baptism comes in very early in the church there's no

[00:38:46] doubt yet you know you have the diddakai you have other places and you have the work that's been done

[00:38:53] in the earliest years it does it does look like it's a it's a believer baptism very early on

[00:38:59] and then there is a move towards more infant and your point is exactly right it quickly moves

[00:39:04] to baptismal regeneration so that the as far as I know and I think historians have argued

[00:39:10] this case very very well it's really Zwingli who makes the first sort of covenantal argument what

[00:39:17] we now know for infant baptism because obviously prior to that everyone was holding to baptismal

[00:39:24] regeneration there were formers I mean even Luther is unclear about this yeah but Calvin and

[00:39:29] Zwingli and others are moving away from that baptismal regeneration but they have to now

[00:39:34] make a kind of new argument against now the Anabaptist and others who are saying wait a second

[00:39:39] here baptism doesn't regenerate baptism is a sign of the new covenant it's a for you know those who are

[00:39:45] believers and united to Christ and then so on so it's not so clear that oh well infant baptism

[00:39:50] is always yeah but infant baptism practice early on even though I think even earlier you can show

[00:39:55] that it was was believer baptism and a number of books have done that low and ever Ferguson

[00:40:02] and other books like that but also you have to still counter baptismal regeneration Augustine

[00:40:09] held to that and he's often touted as obviously a key theologian he is a key theologian of the church

[00:40:15] but he's not very good on on the areas of baptism and even issues of grace he's got you could be

[00:40:21] baptized regenerated and you could lose that grace it's only the elect who actually stick

[00:40:26] and so you have different well what kind of regeneration is this this is a strange kind

[00:40:30] of regenerate we regeneration we normally think brings um you know it's as factual and it

[00:40:35] actually uh person perseveres until the end it's only tied to the elect so that's very you have

[00:40:42] to sort out the history and of course in the end we all say and we should all say that you know

[00:40:47] is important as history is and it's a very important and tradition is very important yet

[00:40:52] still scripture must serve as our final authority and we have to be able to ground

[00:40:57] our arguments in scripture and be able to demonstrate our positions and and the key

[00:41:02] argument in the New Testament is that we do not have infant baptism in the New Testament

[00:41:06] we have no clear case of it the meaning of baptism in the New Testament is not the same

[00:41:11] as what's being conveyed by our reformed brothers and sisters in terms of their

[00:41:16] argument for infant baptism and and so on and those are the main points and then the

[00:41:20] entire covenantal structure has to be argued as well. I know you've written a lot about

[00:41:26] newness of the New Covenant and how and you mentioned it before that the new thing is that

[00:41:33] it's not it's going to be filled with regenerate people right and that's the that's the that's

[00:41:37] the Jeremiah promise and to me that's been one of the most convincing arguments and I haven't heard

[00:41:42] a good you know rebuttal against that it seems to me very powerful but something that it does

[00:41:49] cross my mind is like well if so many traditions have done infant baptism and then a lot of them

[00:41:56] viewed baptismal regeneration like why do Baptists think that we got it right when Augustine

[00:42:05] and all these ones before and Luther and Calvin they all got it wrong how do we you know

[00:42:10] how do we how do we deal with the historical kind of weight of that?

[00:42:14] Well I mean again you don't always want to overturn history too fast but but again we have to say

[00:42:20] as with Luther right I stand on scripture and if I can show that scripture is correct on this

[00:42:27] point I must I must it's my final authority not not the tradition and and in that way we would

[00:42:33] you know if we took that logic too far then we wouldn't really have a full reformation either

[00:42:39] so the reformers had to go against transubstantiation that had been practiced for you know many many

[00:42:46] years I mean certainly it was official in 1215 but even from the 900s or so on quite quite a strong

[00:42:51] tradition of that they said no no no no on what on the basis of scripture there was all kinds

[00:42:56] of practices that they had to overturn they had to you know speak about justification that was

[00:43:02] not clear in Augustine all the way back into late 300s 400s or so which carried all the way

[00:43:08] through the Middle Ages they had to go back to scripture they had to go back to the Greek and

[00:43:14] they had to see that this is a declaration not an infusion of righteousness so they had to turn

[00:43:20] aside from much of the teaching of the church and so on so what did they do they did that on

[00:43:25] scripture well I think the same principle is here and we've often said that the reformers

[00:43:30] we stand on their shoulders they reformed so much they brought so much back of the recovery

[00:43:36] of the gospel that they needed to do in key areas that were distorted by the Roman Catholic Church

[00:43:43] but on certain areas they didn't reform enough and in some sense the very fact that they're moving

[00:43:48] away especially the best of them from baptismal regeneration shows okay we can't argue this but

[00:43:54] now we're going to have to come up with keeping infant baptism and then revisiting our argument

[00:43:59] here and I think they were trying to hang on to infant baptism putting a new argument under

[00:44:04] it instead of then sort of saying wait a second here we got the baptism wrong in terms of its

[00:44:10] signification its application to infants understanding of the new covenant and other areas

[00:44:16] it's interesting that in a lot of Baptist circles it's like just so we're clear this doesn't

[00:44:22] save you everyone and was like it doesn't save you doesn't save you doesn't say you know like

[00:44:26] it's a huge emphasis on that it's not regenerating you it's not magic it's not you know I think

[00:44:31] those are good guardrails but how would you have a Baptist theology of what does baptism do is it is

[00:44:38] it merely a symbol what is what would you tell somebody's getting baptized this is what's happening

[00:44:45] to you or is something happening to you in this moment yeah no we don't want to make it just

[00:44:50] merely a symbol type of thing I mean it is a number of things right it's a declaration of

[00:44:56] the gospel it's a visible proclamation of the gospel that's powerfully proclaiming to all

[00:45:01] those who publicly see this is what is now God has done in this person bringing them from death to

[00:45:08] life uniting them to Christ I mean that is what this is signifying it's it's a public testimony

[00:45:14] that we are Christ it's the only public declaration that we have in the New Testament

[00:45:18] that we are Christ it's not altercalls it's not other things it's we then say I am a Christian

[00:45:24] I Christ is Lord of my life I've come under the name of the triune God and so it signifies that

[00:45:29] and it's it's a strong means of grace not in the the old Roman Catholic sense where by the simply

[00:45:36] the performance of that act there's some kind of regeneration or infusion of righteousness no

[00:45:40] it is is that which God brings blessing in our lives a strong means of grace it's an act of

[00:45:46] obedience it's part of our growth it signifies our entry into the church to the people of God

[00:45:54] the the people of God that is the only people that will as part of the new creation that will

[00:45:59] continue to the end it's our entry into the new creation it signifies all of that and so it's not

[00:46:04] just a mere symbol it's a very proclamation declaration of the gospel and it demonstrates that

[00:46:10] in a public visual way so it's it's what God has ordained it's what Christ has ordained for

[00:46:15] his church and it's so significant to do and and it bears witness of him and it it's a

[00:46:21] confirmation to those who are our baptised it's an act of obedience as they acknowledge God has

[00:46:27] saved me God has by his sovereign grace acted in my life and made me a new sometimes people will

[00:46:33] you know in the reforming community will say wow it's just you know it's all all human centered

[00:46:37] it's all you testifying no we're testifying to the sovereign grace of God that he's done in my

[00:46:42] life and that now he's taken me from from death to life and place me in Christ and his people

[00:46:48] well common objection though is that is in the case of rebaptisms in terms of somebody gets

[00:46:54] baptized when they're 17 at a youth camp they backslide you know they turn away and they're 25

[00:47:00] and they come back to church and they get baptized again and then it's a question of you know I

[00:47:06] hear that a lot from reformed critiques of we don't have election goggles and so you know but

[00:47:13] I guess that's what it means to say profession of faith but how do we untangle that because it's not

[00:47:19] I don't think any baptists would say yes we know for sure that this person is regenerate

[00:47:23] we ask for a credible profession of faith but how do you work with a theology of rebaptism

[00:47:28] which technically speaking I guess would just be actual baptism and the other ones weren't real

[00:47:33] or how do we work through that yeah no I mean and this is this is on the side of the

[00:47:37] bapticide where we can criticize on the reform side and say well if they're not careful infant

[00:47:43] baptism has a kind of presumptive regeneration and this type of thing well on the bapticide

[00:47:50] our great danger is that we do not exercise our role as the church and particularly the

[00:47:57] leadership of the church to fence right to actually say you know as someone wants to be

[00:48:04] baptized that we do our best to discern whether they truly are a Christian yes we're not 100% you

[00:48:12] know we're not omniscient only God is but we are looking for credible signs of christian

[00:48:17] diversion there's true repentance there's true faith there's some kind of fruit of that that

[00:48:23] faith and what we've done is we've taken five-year-olds and seven-year-olds and people

[00:48:28] who walk to aisle and and there hasn't been a faithful proclamation of the gospel in all of

[00:48:34] demands and all of its glory and all of its grace and all of its beauty and so on and

[00:48:38] you know come come forward and your marriage will be fixed or come forward and you'll have a happy

[00:48:42] life and let's be baptized so we've actually cheapened the public testimony what baptism

[00:48:48] signifies and the responsibility then is for the churches to do on the front end much more

[00:48:55] of a work of saying you know to do proper examination talk to the people not baptizing

[00:49:01] people we are not sure show a credible profession of faith so that would avoid a lot of the rebaptism

[00:49:07] problems right rebaptism is not the ideals not what we should be seeking we should not be baptizing

[00:49:13] over and over and over again now if you know I will do so if someone says I'm convinced that I

[00:49:20] was never a Christian I should never have done that and I want to really bear witness to

[00:49:24] Christ now that's fine but that rebaptism is should be last resort

[00:49:31] well a big question that comes from that as well is apostasy and you know our churches we just went

[00:49:38] through a Bible study on Hebrews and there's those warning passages and studying them I'm like

[00:49:43] actually no matter what position you take unless you just straight up say you can lose your

[00:49:46] salvation these are difficult actually even for those it says some of them say that you can't

[00:49:51] repent you can't turn back and so they're problem passers-by everybody but

[00:49:55] you know if we're saying that the new covenant what's different about the new covenant than the old

[00:49:58] is that it's filled with regenerate people with the law written on their hearts they're all believers

[00:50:02] as opposed to you call it a mixed community in the old covenant and then so the sign is only

[00:50:08] applied to members of the new covenant which are only believers so the signs only apply to

[00:50:11] believers what do we do about people who have fallen away how do you how do you fall away from

[00:50:19] the new covenant because Hebrews seems to at least warn even if it's I guess people could say it's

[00:50:25] hypothetical but how do we deal with the apostasy passage with this strong conception of the new

[00:50:30] covenant and its members yeah and then and the warning passages now are I think probably

[00:50:35] there's a there's a couple of you know key arguments that the infant Baptist make and this is

[00:50:39] one of them that they come back to over and over again I mean the other one is sort of the

[00:50:43] visible church right you you and your churches have believers unbelievers I think that's easily

[00:50:48] answered in terms of you know constitutionally you know we we only receive people into the

[00:50:54] church who profess faith they may show themselves false but that's different than constitutionally

[00:51:00] having believer unbeliever by infant baptism brought into the church right so that difference

[00:51:04] but the warning passages are are have to be carefully carefully thought through and I do think

[00:51:09] there are very strong argument for the infant Baptist position if we can then demonstrate

[00:51:16] that their covenantal construction is the is correct that their view of the church is

[00:51:20] correct that their view of the new covenant is correct I mean you have to put a number of

[00:51:23] things in places that then make sense of the warning passages on those covenantal terms

[00:51:29] and the most common way of doing that is to say well look the church is a mixed community

[00:51:34] the warnings are addressed to the church as this mixed community there will be covenant

[00:51:40] keepers within that community there will be covenant unfortunately apostates within that

[00:51:45] community and that's how we best make sense of these warning passages directed to the church

[00:51:50] they're not just directed to you know unbelievers they're directed to seemingly the

[00:51:54] language of Hebrew six and in other places seemingly addressed to Christians so that that fits

[00:52:00] if you can again demonstrate their overall viewpoint and it's consistent with that and so we

[00:52:05] have to say well you know there's a that's a that's one way of interpreting those warning

[00:52:09] passages consistent with their theology now my answer to that is I'm not convinced their

[00:52:15] view of the covenantal structures is correct so we have to argue that I'm not convinced that

[00:52:19] their view of the church as a mixed community is correct I'm not convinced that baptism signifies

[00:52:26] what they say is correct so I then have to look at the warning passages in a way that handles them

[00:52:32] responsibly that's fair to the text that I'm not doing iso-jesus and making up things to order

[00:52:37] just to fit with my system and I think the best way to do that is is the author of Hebrews

[00:52:42] is addressing those who profess faith in Christ he's addressing those who have walked

[00:52:48] with the Lord for a number of years that they've already faced persecution trials difficulties

[00:52:53] he's addressing them as you would anybody who professes faith he's seeing danger signs in their

[00:52:59] lives so he's not seeing right they are to be in you know they are professed to be in Christ

[00:53:06] so that's the indicative yet the their lives aren't living up to that so the warnings come

[00:53:11] and the warnings function and I'm really following the work of Tom Shreiner

[00:53:17] and my friend our Delcannaday and so on who argues that the warning passages are functions

[00:53:22] function as God's sovereign means to bring about them running the race they hear those

[00:53:29] warnings it's addressed to them who profess faith they are to alert them they are to warn them

[00:53:36] they are to hear those warnings and as they hear them they are means to spur them on to run the

[00:53:42] race I think that makes a sense of those warning passages you say well what if someone

[00:53:47] you know doesn't hear the warnings then the Bible has categories for that right

[00:53:52] the parable the sower some grow up and they have professed things and then they fall away

[00:53:57] first John 2 they left us but that showed that they are not of us just because you do have

[00:54:03] profession of faith which is what we go on the basis of but we're not omniscient

[00:54:08] but we go on the basis of profession of faith sometimes professions are false that's still

[00:54:13] quite different than bringing them into the church without a profession of faith and so that's how

[00:54:19] I think we have to handle that so the warning passages I would say are best seen as God's

[00:54:25] means to bring about his ends just as the preaching of the gospel is the means by which

[00:54:30] he brings about the elect prayers of the means by which God brings about his purposes and his plans

[00:54:36] if someone wants to say well I don't think that's what the warning passages are they then have to

[00:54:39] justify that on on other grounds and then usually it's tied to they have a whole theology

[00:54:45] that has to be also accounted for at the same time one of the hard things with Hebrews though

[00:54:50] is is the model he uses are the Israelites in the wilderness and so he has a covenant people

[00:54:55] that's mixed and some of them don't make it to the end and they have temporal consequences

[00:55:01] for that and it seems like if that becomes a paradigm for the new covenant I could see why I would

[00:55:05] say covenant people some don't make it to the end they weren't regenerate how do you maintain

[00:55:12] the Old Testament wilderness parallel in Hebrews while also maintaining a difference in the

[00:55:20] covenant that's always been a confusing thing for me yeah no and then crucial I mean he is he is

[00:55:25] appealing to you think of Hebrews chapter 3 quotation of Psalm 95 he's talking about who were

[00:55:31] they in the wilderness who refused to believe and he talks about their forefathers and and so on so

[00:55:36] I think what's going on here is that is that israel of old even though it's a mixed community

[00:55:42] under that covenant you know still serves as example instruction for them and and he exhorts them on the

[00:55:51] basis of that says make sure that you don't have this and that's warning is again part of that means

[00:55:56] right he's still addressing those who profess faith right he's still addressing those in

[00:56:00] the new covenant there's still changes that are there but he is addressing those who do profess

[00:56:05] faith that wasn't necessarily true of every single Israelite in the in the wilderness they were

[00:56:10] the covenant people and that if they do not persevere if they do not hear heed the warning

[00:56:18] they will be lost now he's not he's saying well is there a potential loss of salvation no I don't think

[00:56:23] there is yet it's it's the means by which it's spurred on so he's still using them as examples

[00:56:28] as often we use all of scripture as examples for the church but then he also turns around in

[00:56:33] Hebrews 6 and says I'm convinced of better things in your case I'm convinced that this is not

[00:56:38] the situation and so on and so he's he's I mean it's what a pastor would do as I talk with seminary

[00:56:44] students as I talk with you know fellow Christians and I see something dangerous in their life they

[00:56:50] may be not meeting with the people of God or their hearts are growing cold and so on I come

[00:56:55] alongside them and I treat them as believers but I say you know these are these this is

[00:57:00] what discipline is I mean you're not living up to what you claim to be and as I exhort them and so on

[00:57:08] as they hear that warning I know that they their profession is true if they do not hear that morning

[00:57:15] then I would know their profession is false it's a good way to put it and that is a good point

[00:57:19] because the same mechanisms in place because I'm sure even with an old covenant Israel the

[00:57:25] warnings also spurred on the regenerate to persevere so you know that that and that's probably what

[00:57:32] Hebrews is more focusing upon I've always you know and it's interesting with those warning

[00:57:36] passages even if you say they're talking about they're coming they're talking about new covenant

[00:57:40] breakers you know people who are in the covenant and they abandon the faith I don't think any

[00:57:45] pedo-baptists would say it's impossible to restore them to repentance you know I mean like

[00:57:51] there are other jagged edges of those warnings that even taking a mixed covenant view doesn't get you

[00:57:58] out of I don't think and yeah I think that's right and then you have to be able to demonstrate it on a

[00:58:04] whole host of other grounds too and often often what I find and again we all do this if we're not

[00:58:09] careful right we have our theological viewpoint we all theological viewpoints but then we try

[00:58:14] to find a particular text and we say oh that proves my viewpoint we say well wait a second

[00:58:19] possibly it proves your viewpoint but you're going to have to be able to demonstrate a whole

[00:58:24] host of other things at the same time and that's where the difficulty comes in. Well you know as

[00:58:29] we kind of bring this to a close because I mean there's so much it's amazing you talk about

[00:58:35] baptism you start talking about you talk the nature of the church then you start talking

[00:58:38] about how grace operates on people and there's all these things tied to it but I'm curious

[00:58:44] have you ever what do you think is the best argument you've heard for infant baptism the one that's made

[00:58:49] you buckle the most? You know I think some of that pull towards families genealogical and you say

[00:58:59] okay wait a second here is there change and I think we have to think carefully yes even in

[00:59:05] the Old Testament as it's unfolding these things the the covenants as they're leading to the

[00:59:10] new covenant there is the genealogical change there is that but I mean that that certainly

[00:59:14] pulls strong on people because you want you have to account for the importance of the family

[00:59:20] creation order tied to covenant structures and so on so I think that's that's one of the areas

[00:59:26] that's crucial and then if you can prove the entire system I think the warning passages confirm

[00:59:30] that as well but again as I say it requires demonstration of the entire structure and that's

[00:59:37] why these arguments are so difficult because it's not just a text that we're appealing to one or

[00:59:41] two texts it's really how all the texts fit and that's why you know people either buy into the

[00:59:48] entire system and they say oh yeah this this has to go this way or you say wait a second here

[00:59:52] that's not exactly how scripture puts those things together well maybe we could just

[00:59:57] you can baptize half the infant and then when they grow up and they profess faith you baptize

[01:00:01] the other half and you can kind of you can kind of figure it out but you know in all seriousness

[01:00:06] intrigued by the fact that you would try to write a mere baptism

[01:00:10] article and you know one of the things that we've done in this podcast we did a series on the

[01:00:15] Reformation and we interact with some Roman Catholic thinkers and all these types of things

[01:00:20] and one of the big criticisms is the fracturing of Protestantism that there's so much division

[01:00:25] and baptism is at the heart of that fracturing. Is there a future for a mere baptism? Is that

[01:00:35] possible? Because I think it's amazing that like it is it's almost dumbfounding like you can agree on

[01:00:42] so much and be brothers in arms with pedo-baptists on so many things but you don't want to minimize

[01:00:50] as different. Is there a future for an ecumenical kind of baptism? Well I mean the only future

[01:00:57] would be is that we're working from biblical teaching and say this is clearly what the New

[01:01:03] Testament says baptism means right so I would say you know it speaks of one's entry into the church,

[01:01:11] entry into the entire new creation bound up with the New Covenant. One is a member of that

[01:01:16] New Covenant, one is united to Christ. All of that we could agree with now the problem is

[01:01:22] is that all of us say that but then you say well how can this be applied if baptism signifies

[01:01:29] that one is in the church, one is united to Christ, one is turned from death to life and union with

[01:01:36] Christ. How can it be applied to someone that that's not true of right so that's where the rub comes

[01:01:42] so a lot of us will agree on the surface in some sense and say well baptism signifies those things.

[01:01:47] Baptism signifies even that we have our new heart but the problem is with the infant

[01:01:52] view it signifies you need a new heart right and not that it's signifying you have that

[01:01:56] heart right so there can be agreement on many points but in the end it's that baptism of an

[01:02:03] infant who does not have saving faith that's really where the rub comes because everything

[01:02:09] in the New Testament baptism is so closely identified with conversion it's so closely identified with

[01:02:16] you know obviously it signifies union with Christ which means one is born of the spirit,

[01:02:21] one is forgiven of the sins, one is in covenant union with him, he is our covenant head that can

[01:02:27] only be true of those who are in Christ and not in Adam but if you are not regenerate you're still

[01:02:32] in Adam. I mean and that's where that's where the difference will be on the note there's going to be no

[01:02:37] sort of reconciliation of the view at this point but on the overall view in terms of

[01:02:41] baptism signifies a few things that we can agree on the question is how can then we then

[01:02:47] apply that to the infant and the argument then comes from the paid-off view is well go back

[01:02:50] to the Abrahamic covenant and see its continuity ultimately coming to the new my point is is you

[01:02:56] can't do that because you're not treating those covenants as they unfold and reach their fulfillment

[01:03:01] in the new covenant. You're not seeing the progression and how it's developing maybe last

[01:03:08] question how do you think the church can grow and how can baptists you know just talking

[01:03:12] about specifically one perspective how can baptists grow in their understanding of

[01:03:18] baptism how can the church practically strengthen this means of grace that God has given us in the

[01:03:25] minds of lay people. Well we need to grow because we've unfortunately cheapened it too right so we

[01:03:31] really take baptism seriously it is for believers and only applied to believers so there's a real

[01:03:38] growth in the sense that we have to faithfully preach the gospel we cannot preach you know

[01:03:44] a truncated gospel that is calling people to saving faith that is not true saving faith and so on so

[01:03:51] we really have to be strong there I think also to really understand you know what baptism is

[01:03:57] to see it in light of our criticisms of the infant view and so on we're going to have to have a

[01:04:02] whole biblical theology we're going to have to have a whole understanding of covenants we're

[01:04:05] going to need to grow in that area so sometimes baptists have not understood the covenants

[01:04:11] properly so I think more in the reformed in the reformed baptist tradition that is a strength but

[01:04:16] some in the baptists are more dispensational and they just don't think that way and I don't think

[01:04:20] that they're properly then grasping the nature of the new covenant the covenantal structure of

[01:04:25] scripture what baptism is so there's a lot of growth so we need biblical theological

[01:04:30] teaching we need to recover again that baptism you know and altercalls aren't the public

[01:04:37] testimony of being brought in the Christ baptism is baptism is hugely hugely significant it's ordained

[01:04:42] by Christ same at the Lord supper and those are the two ordinances that visually proclaim the gospel

[01:04:47] and we have to treat them you know as holy things and as God given and and not just sort of oh let's

[01:04:54] just baptize somebody come forward we have a lot to improve in that area in terms of our Baptist

[01:05:01] churches I've been inspired by just reading some of the early church writings the catechesis and the

[01:05:08] labor they took before people got baptized how serious they made it known what it meant to follow

[01:05:14] Christ what you'd have to give up what it could cost you and I think you know your words are well

[01:05:19] taken because I think that's that's kind of in that same vein that the early Christians had of

[01:05:24] how serious this was well it may be that you know because we've had such influence of Christianity

[01:05:30] in our society so that's produced the dangerous thing of that is it's produced a lot of nominal

[01:05:34] Christianity that's quickly disappearing and you think of the early church when somebody stepped

[01:05:40] out and was baptized they were totally disassociated themselves from their either pagan background

[01:05:46] or Jewish background Islam today if Christians are baptized in Islamic setting oh you know full

[01:05:53] well even a Jewish setting you know full well these people are Christians and they're not

[01:05:57] now Islam and so on so that comes with a huge testimony of the gospel and persecution and trials

[01:06:04] and difficulties if it gets to that in our nation and so on then of course baptism will take on much

[01:06:10] more significance than it has with you know our sort of nominal Christianity those are great

[01:06:18] thoughts Dr. Wellum thank you so much for joining us this was so informative and helpful

[01:06:23] and you know all respect to our pedo Baptist brethren and but I think this is an important

[01:06:31] topic and I think your work has been very helpful to help a lot of people think through it and so

[01:06:36] appreciate you coming on the show. Brian very good love to talk about it and yes I'm so indebted to

[01:06:42] our Reformed brethren but on this issue we do differ so it is important and it's great to talk

[01:06:48] about it. If you guys appreciated this episode we're going to have some show notes with some

[01:06:54] links to some of the books that Dr. Wellum has written you can check those out he's also got a

[01:06:59] podcast Christ Overall make sure you check that out a lot of great content there as always make

[01:07:03] sure you subscribe to the podcast share with your friends you can check out our YouTube channel

[01:07:07] as well all those will be in the show notes our website you can support us on Patreon we

[01:07:12] much appreciate that but thank you guys for tuning in and we'll see you guys next week