Uncovering the Bible of the Apostles (Interview with Dr. Greg Lanier)

[00:00:00] What Bible did the Apostle Paul grow up reading? Or Jesus for that matter, any of the other apostles?

[00:00:06] Well this complex question demonstrates the need for understanding the Septuagint, which is a fancy name for a stream of translations

[00:00:14] of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, the language of the New Testament. Dr. Griglinier joins us to discuss what the Septuagint is and why it matters today.

[00:00:25] We're going to talk about common misconceptions about Septuagint, as well as issues of textural transmission and reliability

[00:00:32] and all those types of things that get really technical but I think are really really helpful.

[00:00:37] We also talk about debates regarding the apocrypha or the Deuteron canonical books that are accepted by Roman Catholics

[00:00:44] in the Eastern Orthodox but rejected by Protestants. Why is that the case? What can we learn from those debates?

[00:00:49] What are the reasons behind fathers like Jerome rejecting the apocrypha and how does that factor into these conversations?

[00:00:57] So get ready for a deep dive into history and theology, enjoy this episode.

[00:01:10] You listening to Thatll Preach? Sorry to have our guests on today. We have Dr. Griglinier.

[00:01:16] He serves Associate Professor of New Testament at RTS Orlando, Reform Theological Seminary in Orlando, Florida.

[00:01:23] He's also an Associate Pastor at River Oaks Church which is a PCA church. He's written a bunch of books,

[00:01:30] Old Made New, a Guide to the New Testament, used to the Old Testament, the Septuagint, what it is and why it matters

[00:01:36] and also is Jesus truly God how the Bible teaches the divinity of Christ. So it's quite the list of books man.

[00:01:44] How do you rank all these out? You wrote these all in the past year which is amazing.

[00:01:49] No, they were all. There's different things up now. It's been a privilege.

[00:01:56] Well we got you here live and we're in person for our theology conference which was really cool.

[00:02:03] I know and you're getting extra money worth that.

[00:02:05] We're just squeezing everything we can out of this but I had some great sessions talking about

[00:02:10] Old Testament can which is a fascinating topic and you talked about how do we understand the

[00:02:15] Old Testament light of the new. It's just great. One of the books that I'm reading back in the day

[00:02:22] and I think it's been a fascinating topic is the Septuagint and you've written a book about that.

[00:02:30] We'll have a link in the show notes if you want to get that but with my partner in Karam, Will Ross.

[00:02:35] Will Ross. Shout out to Will Ross out there but yeah this is something that you know I didn't

[00:02:42] really know much about until I went seminary and I started hearing about this mysterious thing,

[00:02:48] this mysterious Greek translation of the Old Testament and so it wasn't something that I knew just

[00:02:56] in the common evangelical world people didn't really talk about it. So I'm kind of curious

[00:02:59] and now that you've written a book on it you spend a lot of time studying the Septuagint and what got

[00:03:03] you into this area of study. Right yeah and probably one of the things that Will and I've been

[00:03:11] trying to do is increase knowledge among sort of ordinary people because it has typically been a

[00:03:16] very scholarly nerdy thing. You see this up to as you mentioned in the footnotes of most English

[00:03:21] Bibles and so it is a thing that you'll bump into but not super well known. I probably didn't

[00:03:27] know much about it actually when it roused in seminary so trying to change that actually in my

[00:03:32] own teaching on a Will as well. I probably had heard of it but I wouldn't have really known like

[00:03:37] where to find it per se and what exactly to do with it so actually kind of got more interested in

[00:03:42] a late seminary as I was writing some papers mostly in preparation for further study and so my

[00:03:50] doctoral work in particular got me more into the field of Septuagint study so I came in really

[00:03:58] from the New Testament door and then I'm actually met Will overseas and he's an actual proper

[00:04:06] Septuagint scholar from the Old Testament side and so we started Tickinides is around. Actually the

[00:04:11] first thing we did together was a readers edition of the Septuagint so that was our first big project

[00:04:17] and then a vocabulary intro and then we wrote the crossway book so it was mostly through New

[00:04:23] Testament stuff pretty good only Luke's gospel but just in general kind of use it. The use of the

[00:04:26] old and the new was kind of my gateway into the world of the Septuagint. So I remember from your classes

[00:04:34] when you teach on Romans or Acts I mean you would sort of have the what the New Testament says and

[00:04:40] you compare it to the Septuagint and that was kind of like wait a minute, it's kind of this

[00:04:45] you know it's not going directly back to Hebrew there's this sort of middle

[00:04:49] right in many cases yeah so yeah in many cases and that was fascinating to me now maybe I'm

[00:04:55] worth throwing out Septuagint people like what kind of what is that this is something I just

[00:04:58] feature yeah or something like that but what what is that if you want to just give a layman's

[00:05:03] description of what the Septuagint is what would you say yeah that's that's kind of the most important

[00:05:07] starting point there's a few different ways you can define it but the sort of the easiest is to

[00:05:13] think of it as a a stream of translational activity because there's no like if you go back to the

[00:05:19] ancient world there's no like Amazon that has a Septuagint to buy like you can today and if

[00:05:25] you're going to buy one by the res musician from Gregory Arlen here and excuse me and will they

[00:05:30] may Ross but that really didn't exist but what we do have is various groups of people translating the

[00:05:37] Hebrew of the Old Testament into what had become their vernacular of the day starting roughly

[00:05:44] in 200 BC with the first five books and then it was a long process to kind of finish it all out so

[00:05:50] it's essentially a translation of the Hebrew text into what had become the lingua franca of

[00:05:57] the day namely Greek and so it's it's similar in spirit to the fact that we have English

[00:06:02] Bibles or Spanish Bibles today all of which go back to either the Hebrew Old Testament or the

[00:06:08] Greek New Testament this is a translation of the Hebrew Old Testament into the language that

[00:06:14] the world was speaking in its day because most had moved on from Hebrew because it was

[00:06:20] under Alexander the Great and his successors the world kind of converted to the Greek so

[00:06:25] so you're saying this it's not like one translation it started out that way that's where it gets

[00:06:30] nuanced uh so strictly speaking you can use the term Septuagint for the original Greek

[00:06:36] Pentateuch because that was what was translated first first five books first five books um and

[00:06:41] that probably was a small team effort in a relatively small amount of time right most likely so if

[00:06:48] you want to say something is the Septuagint you would call that Septuagint but Septuagint became a label for

[00:06:56] really what is kind of a family of translational activities really that took a long time

[00:07:00] and a lot of different people some in Egypt maybe others elsewhere working their way through the

[00:07:05] different books and in fact editing books and different like once you have a translation of one

[00:07:10] of the books it didn't just sort of stay put sometimes they say oh they would correct it and start

[00:07:15] saying well you know I need to make it better and so even have editing activity over time too so it

[00:07:20] just makes it all complex so for us we would say okay it's basically like a river it's a coherent river

[00:07:26] sure but it has tributaries and different spin-offs and it's lots of people over a long period of time

[00:07:31] fundamentally taking the Hebrew Bible and putting into Greek and then even editing that and

[00:07:36] changing that there's two versions of Daniel and blah blah blah there's some complexity but

[00:07:40] that's essentially what we're talking about it's no different than you could sort of say

[00:07:44] there's the English translation river right sure that started with like 10 Dale and so forth

[00:07:50] and has different tributaries but there is kind of okay here's a bunch of different English translations

[00:07:55] that are all in English bible from the Hebrew and Greek and so Septuagint is kind of like that

[00:07:59] just in Greek what motivated these Jews to start translating I mean I guess they don't understand

[00:08:07] I understand why I guess you're saying Alexander great kind of hellenizes the world and so

[00:08:13] there's a need for translation is that kind of what's motivating that yeah I mean it's a bit

[00:08:19] shrouded in mystery but there's probably two motivations and both both kind of operating in same

[00:08:26] sales number one book sales yeah no the one would be you have the Jewish community spread around

[00:08:32] the world post exile and post restoration so where the Old Testament is off and initially they

[00:08:40] are all under the Persians and so the Persian Empire spoke Aramaic and then when Alexander the great

[00:08:46] conquers the known world in relatively short fashion and everyone sort of portrayed and so

[00:08:53] forth has to start using Greek you have a Jewish community spread around the world that if they

[00:09:01] want to be involved in society and be involved in commerce and trade and politics they've got to

[00:09:05] at least have some capability in Greek so fast forward then you have the first generation right

[00:09:12] they've got to start speaking Greek and then this is a little bit of an oversimplification and then

[00:09:16] their kids so the first generations like we still have Hebrew and the synagogue and then we speak

[00:09:21] the next generation what happens to their kids they don't know as much Hebrew but they're pretty

[00:09:26] basically the Greek and their kids this happens today right their kids don't do any Hebrew anymore at all

[00:09:33] they just only know the Greek like they go home and they visit their grandparents and it's like I

[00:09:36] don't know what you're saying but I only degree and so there was a need in the Jewish community

[00:09:42] in the aftermath of all that's like we need a Bible in our language now actually I think it's quite

[00:09:46] beautiful that they never felt like hey the only way to know God that a Yahweh is in Hebrew

[00:09:53] like yes Hebrew is the most like Hebrew is where inspiration happened but we can't really read

[00:09:58] that so what do we need to do we need to translate it to a language that we can use in the synagogue

[00:10:02] and and be able to read Moses in the language that we know so I think worship was probably the primary

[00:10:09] motivator where they actually needed a Bible which is no different I mean that's very reformation

[00:10:13] actually when you think about it yeah that's interesting because the if you think about it from a

[00:10:18] biblical perspective the Jewish community because of Abraham right because of Adam know etc is a lot

[00:10:25] of Bible theology they were wired to at least on their better days to reach the world right that was

[00:10:31] what the whole point of the Abrahamic covenant was and so part of that is linguistic you can't

[00:10:35] reach the world if you're like everyone has to speak Hebrew right it's not gonna work so there's

[00:10:40] actually something I think really remarkable about that in the Providence of God and then probably

[00:10:44] the second motivation was under the Greeks you know generally speaking they wanted to have access to

[00:10:50] every conquered peoples group people groups sort of legal code and so as the Jews were conquered by

[00:10:56] the successors of Alexander the Greats they were like hey we need your law code we need the Torah

[00:11:03] in a language that we can read and so that might have been another motivation was okay we need to

[00:11:07] provide our book of laws in the language that are over Lord skid reads that might have been another

[00:11:14] motivation under the tolemies so they were like practical and then political reasons why they

[00:11:19] they did this but they they still recognize the Hebrew scriptures as that's strictly speaking

[00:11:25] what's inspired that's why they translated it right right they viewed a good trend so what's

[00:11:30] interesting is that when you look at whenever they would revise it yeah and they say okay we have

[00:11:36] Daniel and Greek but you know what it's not a very good translation we need to make it better

[00:11:40] and what we're gonna do is we're gonna make it closer to the Hebrew because Hebrew was always

[00:11:43] understood to be the standard and what we're trying to do it's a very common misconception when they

[00:11:49] translate in a Greek they're not thinking this is the inspired new version and we don't care

[00:11:53] about the Hebrew anymore it's not actually the motivation nor was that actually what's happening

[00:11:57] in the early church when they embrace the Septuagint they have the translation to give access to the

[00:12:03] Hebrew which is exactly what we do today what makes a good English translation today is it's

[00:12:08] readable but it's also faithful to the Hebrew not because we want to idolize the English but because

[00:12:13] we want access to what the Hebrew says and it's fine large the motivation is true for them as well so

[00:12:19] the standard was always the Hebrew and like getting close to that was the goal so there's never

[00:12:24] a real sense that they're like hey we're gonna replace the Hebrew with this other thing and make

[00:12:30] that our inspired source like no no it's a window to what we still think is the inspired source

[00:12:35] we just don't have the ability to read like most of us aren't very good to read the Hebrew more

[00:12:39] other than the scribes and priest or whatever so that was more what they were getting at and

[00:12:44] the church fathers for the same way you know when the church fathers talk about the Septuagint

[00:12:48] they don't talk about it as if hey this is the thing that has replaced the Hebrew Bible

[00:12:55] they buy in large they say this gives us access to the Hebrew Bible that

[00:13:01] with very few exceptions most of the church fathers couldn't read Hebrew

[00:13:05] you're only being a major exception so they need some way to get at it and so they're like okay

[00:13:09] the Septuagint is our gateway to what we think is the inspired word but we just don't

[00:13:14] use it the way we should use it so using that translation analogy with the English translation

[00:13:19] could a parallel be drawn where you lift up your ESV and you're like or an IV or

[00:13:25] or an IV or any qualified by the translate the ES this is the brown S

[00:13:29] this is the brought to you by crossway yeah exactly exactly right so when you look at then

[00:13:34] you could see you're preaching from it you would say well this is the word of God but strictly speaking

[00:13:38] you'd be like what's the translation of the original like you would yeah you would say that really

[00:13:45] this is a translation I guess that accesses the original manuscripts or the original manuscripts

[00:13:51] are there they're translated so we can have access to them right there would still be some kind

[00:13:56] of a distance and I suppose I could see why someone might say the Septuagint is inspired in the sense

[00:14:01] of they're viewing as a faithful transmission of what is inspired or do they have more of a delineation

[00:14:09] between that well I mean Pinsland who you're talking about but I think I think applying the

[00:14:18] category of inspired to the Septuagint is not really historically well grounded although

[00:14:28] some did sort of apply that language and there was a big debate among origin Jerome and Augustin

[00:14:34] on that front but at least what we try to do in the book at the end is we is initially to use the

[00:14:42] word the term word of God so we say okay the normative place that we want to call scripture that is

[00:14:48] what has been breathed out by God and given to his people and just limming ourselves to the Hebrew

[00:14:54] side of it that is found in the Hebrew text as best we can reconstruct it today right

[00:15:02] and by and large with a few exceptions that is where the locus of authority is found for doctrine

[00:15:12] which why you learn languages and seminary whatever and so that's pretty consistent throughout

[00:15:16] church history as well and then we use the term word of God for that middle ground which is

[00:15:24] a faithful translation of the upstream original is for God's people the word of God and it's not

[00:15:32] a perfect axonomy yeah taking some criticism for it but our goal was to try to say any authority

[00:15:38] of that is simply derived from its upstream source to the extent that it accurately reflects that

[00:15:44] upstream source so in the way you would judge so if you're in a church in pick a country a non-English

[00:15:52] speaking country just as an example and you're preaching to some Swahili speaking people as an

[00:15:58] example you're not going to read the Hebrew typically right you're going to stand up and read

[00:16:03] a Swahili Bible sure what are you going to say this is the word of the Lord because you're persuaded

[00:16:09] that it is a faithful translation not perfect but a faithful translation that gives access to

[00:16:16] the place that we think scripture or the word of God actually is found and so

[00:16:20] we hope that that was kind of a helpful analogy that like there's really no functional

[00:16:25] difference between the Septuagint as a Greek translation from a long time ago and a Mandarin or a

[00:16:30] French or a Spanish or an English translation that is either more or less good but it's still trying

[00:16:34] to give access to the original text that we do think is the ultimate source so to this you know

[00:16:40] some folks want to say well okay if the New Testament authors use the Septuagint then and quote

[00:16:44] from it then does that somehow confer upon it inspired status and aren't where we land as no

[00:16:52] it does not like just because Paul quotes from the Septuagint and takes a version of

[00:16:58] Leviticus and quotes it in the Greek form that doesn't like magically infuse all of Greek Leviticus

[00:17:03] with this magical superpower of inspiration that doesn't really make any sense anymore so than

[00:17:08] in English would we convey some magic power it's simply he's using the text that his audience had

[00:17:15] right just like I do on right tomorrow morning i'm going to preach from yes i'm going to preach

[00:17:20] i'm preaching from the Greek actually fundamentally but i'm using a few Bible that people i'm

[00:17:25] preaching to use and so that's what i'm going to quote from um it would be weird for me not to do

[00:17:30] that so i think that's a better way is like they're using the text form that their audience is

[00:17:35] familiar with that conveys the meaning that is sufficient for the point they're trying to make

[00:17:40] you're going to preach from the Greek it's pretty awesome no i'm developing yeah no i mean

[00:17:44] okay as a nerd am i my i i drive by sermon from the Hebrew and the Greek and then if you tell me

[00:17:50] that you're in i've e-church fine that's what i'll read before i preach but i've you know my

[00:17:54] sermon is developed from the original text but anyway that's a different point it's funny i was

[00:17:57] selling Instagram it was like there's a real it was a kjv only guy where he's like

[00:18:02] you know when i say kjv only i mean i think the kjv can correct the Greek i was like wow

[00:18:09] well it's some pretty intense stuff and to be fair the king james is a fantastic translation

[00:18:13] right for uh in terms of translation philosophy quite a miracle first time but

[00:18:18] inspired per hand no i almost had you i was i think they would they would say that

[00:18:23] you'd be crazy to think that they were inspired in their task they were just trying to be faithful

[00:18:27] there you know there you know well you mentioned how okay the subteurgent the Greek Old Testament is

[00:18:32] quoted a lot of places in the New Testament so how does how to getting a grasp of the subteurgent

[00:18:39] help us interpret the New Testament why is that important for us to to understand this Greek text

[00:18:46] yeah i mean there's there's kind of four categories when you look at quotations and such of the

[00:18:51] Old Testament the new there's kind of four categories one is it's very clear that the apostolic

[00:19:00] author is drawing on something that so far as we can tell because again we don't have

[00:19:05] the handwritten copy of something from Moses where i'm going to reconstruct it from the evidence

[00:19:10] that we do have but so far as we can tell they are drawing on something that is closer to what we

[00:19:17] know as the Hebrew and is different from what we find in the quote unquote subteurgent so a good

[00:19:23] example of that is actually was going over that this morning when the Matthew 2 quotation of out

[00:19:28] of Israel i have seen me out of Egypt i called my son even though Matthew's writing in Greek

[00:19:35] and he's quoting Jose 11 the wording that he is using is clearly from the Hebrew because

[00:19:41] the Hebrew says exactly that just in Hebrew out of Egypt i called my son and the Greek that we know

[00:19:46] as far back as we can reconstruct it for Jose 11 says out of Egypt i called my children

[00:19:51] she's not the same thing it's plural and so he can't be used that that argument wouldn't have worked

[00:19:55] for him so he can't be using this he's got to be using you know he's got to be using some form

[00:20:00] that is closest to the master ed that's one category where it's like they seem to be using something

[00:20:05] that's closer to the Hebrew then maybe there's three categories then there's a middle category which

[00:20:11] the Greek and the Hebrew are functionally indistinguishable so you wouldn't know either way

[00:20:16] so a lot of times like when they quote Leviticus 1918 the Hebrew says one thing the Greek says verbatim

[00:20:23] what the Hebrew says it's not hard there's no mystery here it's a very faithful word for word

[00:20:28] rendering of love your neighbor as yourself and then when the New Testament authors quote that verse

[00:20:32] multiple times they're all identical and you don't really care whether they're getting up you

[00:20:37] don't know if they're getting it from the Hebrew of the Greek is the Greek and the Hebrew

[00:20:40] are functionally the same just in different languages so that's probably the majority actually where

[00:20:46] the the Greek as we know it in the quote unquote septuogen is so close to what we know in the

[00:20:53] Hebrew then they're basically the same and it's fine right close enough so yeah maybe they're

[00:20:58] using the septuogen but there's no real difference and then the more interesting category is Paul

[00:21:04] or whomever is quoting something from Isaiah what have you and it's really close to the septuogen

[00:21:12] or identical to septuogen and it differs from what we have in the Hebrew in some meaningful ways

[00:21:18] and there's depending on how way you want to dole on there's a pretty good number of those where

[00:21:23] it's like okay it it seems pretty likely that they're making their point based on some wording

[00:21:30] that is found in the Greek and when you compare it to my Hebrew Bible then I got for seminary

[00:21:35] it's not the same because the Greek translator whatever reason either there's two reasons why this

[00:21:41] would happen either they interpreted it in a different way and sort of in their translation

[00:21:44] they became more sort of new living translation more loose if you will as opposed to being kind of

[00:21:50] nazby style and being word-for-word or the Hebrew they were translating might not have been

[00:21:56] identical to what we have today that makes sense because the Hebrew that we have and you see this in

[00:22:01] your old testament when you read the Old Testament 99% of the time like yeah it's pretty secure here

[00:22:08] but there's the 1% of the time where it's like actually here's one Hebrew version here's what we

[00:22:12] have from the Dead Sea Scrolls here's what we have from whatever and so we're not 100% sure

[00:22:17] so even the ESV will have those kinds of footnodes and Deuteronomy 32 and that kind of stuff so

[00:22:21] they could just be translating from a different Hebrew does that mean it's the better Hebrew we don't

[00:22:26] know it just means that the scribes weren't perfect in terms of how they copied it so there could

[00:22:32] be different reasons so that category of they're making an argument based on the Septuagint

[00:22:39] only is really relevant when it's differing from what we know from the Hebrew and so that one's

[00:22:44] the interesting category well what's more debated yeah I mean I'm curious about that like what do

[00:22:50] we make of those differences you said it could have been that they there's a textual tradition

[00:22:54] of the Hebrew text could have variants I guess and that they're translating those you'd expect variations

[00:23:00] or maybe they're kind of interpreting it trying to show you know lean the reader toward a particular

[00:23:07] understanding of the Hebrew via their translation something like that when Paul is quoting Septuagint

[00:23:15] or I don't know one of the New Testament authors are they aware of what the Hebrew says and

[00:23:22] they're choosing to use the other one or like how are they you know are they going no this translation

[00:23:28] kind of gets more what I'm saying or does that make sense like what was right I mean what did they

[00:23:31] think they were doing right I mean those are all you know the natural questions that the challenge

[00:23:36] is it's almost impossible to answer this question and here's why well hey we don't we can't like

[00:23:41] and choir what's happening in Paul's mind right he's right we have him the third chair here we could

[00:23:47] ask him uh so we're trying to piece it together based on evidence that we have um and the reason why

[00:23:53] that's such a vexed discussion is because you have Paul quoting it a certain way and it could be

[00:24:03] a conscious decision to adopt a certain wording that he thinks fits his arguments better

[00:24:10] than what we now know is the masoretic and then you'd have to deal with those kind of implications

[00:24:16] or it could just be the wording that he was familiar with that just happens to not be what

[00:24:21] later gets put in the masoretic in the first millennium text that we use for our English Bibles

[00:24:28] and you don't know well would they've been aware of the Hebrew text like what they've well I'm saying is

[00:24:33] it's almost to call it the Hebrew text is actually not even okay terribly accurate because yes there

[00:24:40] there is a stable textual tradition sure yeah but it's not perfect and we know that from a lot of

[00:24:45] evidence in fact you know your English Bibles mentioned all that stuff the seer that says this or

[00:24:49] the targum say this or whatever some erotin pentate you see these things in your foot then it was

[00:24:53] trying to hide anything um but to say was Paul aware of what the Hebrew said

[00:25:00] is kind of a funny way to phrase it because there was a there's a limited amount of diversity in

[00:25:07] what the Hebrew even was and again you can demonstrably prove that from the manuscripts that we have so

[00:25:15] he might he would probably just kind of be puzzled at the question like what do you mean

[00:25:21] by saying the Hebrew because in the synagogue that he's working from it says this

[00:25:28] that may not be the same thing that later becomes known as the maseretic text in

[00:25:33] 1000 AD which has a earlier history so it's it's kind of a funny thing to ask like you just don't know

[00:25:40] I guess I'm wondering if he so so the Bible he grew up with was the Septuagint

[00:25:44] does that make sense like if that was I think it's oh the Bible he grew up with is similar to

[00:25:48] what we have today in an a certain sense where you know I grew up within IV 84 so my memorization

[00:25:54] certain verses is in IV 84 okay and then I read it in the sv and like oh it's different than what

[00:25:59] I grew up with yeah yeah are we in IV 11 or csb or whatever um and in other words we all exist

[00:26:07] unless you're in you know a kjv only circle we all exist in a plurality of of texts that are all

[00:26:12] basically saying the same thing but with some variation that even having kids like oh why does

[00:26:17] it say this way here's like well complicated I haven't just explained this kind of things

[00:26:21] and so my sense is as a Paul is traveling around as a Pharisee certainly he would have known

[00:26:27] Hebrew and would have interacted with the Bible in Hebrew that doesn't mean it was always

[00:26:30] everywhere the same Hebrew you could have local variations I got a Jerusalem yeah where

[00:26:34] I got copied slightly differently here and if he's on the road he doesn't have a whole Torah cabinet

[00:26:39] with right right right huge and so when he gets to Corinth and he's gonna write some stuff he's

[00:26:44] gotta go to the local synagogue yeah we know it's slightly different there and maybe it's Hebrew

[00:26:47] maybe it's Greek don't know it could be both um and so it's so maybe the takeaway is it's actually

[00:26:52] just way more complicated than I think folks realize which folks don't like complexity I get that

[00:26:56] I don't like it either I mean I think it's fun uh helps pay the bills for me but um

[00:27:04] it's like to ask these kinds of questions I hate to not give solid answers but the

[00:27:08] it's actually really hard to pin down yeah you're like take Matthew as another example

[00:27:13] Matthew was bilingual he was Levi and his Jewish side of his life he's more had two names because

[00:27:21] as many did he was Matthew for his day job as a Roman tax collector right so as day job he's

[00:27:28] speaking Greek and then you know back home he's speaking Hebrew and so and he's an educated man

[00:27:35] and in Matthew when you read his quotations sometimes they seem to be closer to what we now

[00:27:42] know as the Hebrew sometimes they seem to be a little bit closer to quote unquote the Septuagint

[00:27:46] sometimes they're kind of in between when he quotes Isaiah 42 and Matthew 12 and so you're

[00:27:51] kind of scratching your heads like well which Bible is he using and you're like well like all of

[00:27:55] them because he's multilingual and yeah an apostle who's traveling around and using what he maybe

[00:28:01] he's memorized some of it sometimes he's quoting from memory sometimes baby's looking at a

[00:28:05] printed text but it might not be exactly the same a capernium as it is in Jerusalem whatever so

[00:28:10] it's often just complicated when you have memorization local variant copies the linguistic

[00:28:18] stuff with Hebrew and Greek here and there and so as a as a side note that hopefully will be better

[00:28:24] answers to this so Will and I are editing of volume with systematic theologians historical

[00:28:31] theologians and so on reformation people and so on that is trying to answer some of these questions

[00:28:37] in a more helpful way we tried to in the crossway book but only got part of the way there and so

[00:28:42] it's going to be called the authority of the Septuagint a sort of multi disciplinary perspective and

[00:28:47] so we have people much smarter than us you know John Fesco and others who are saying okay how do

[00:28:55] we grapple when we believe in certain doctrine of scripture and a certain doctrine of the preservation

[00:29:01] of the Hebrew and Greek yeah how do we grapple with some of these questions of well what if

[00:29:06] you know here's another example what if Paul sites this set this verse from the Old Testament

[00:29:14] and the wording he uses is different than what Matthew does and is different than what James does

[00:29:18] which actually happens for passages where they are all going back to the same text like Deuteronomy 6

[00:29:26] 4 and 5 or Isaiah 6 another example is quoted in all four gospels plus acts and every single

[00:29:33] quotation of Isaiah 6 9 through 10 is different in Matthew, Martin, Luke, John and Acts and so what

[00:29:39] do you do with that how do we think about that in light of these considerations and one of the

[00:29:45] get one of the people contributing is like it kind of just seems like the New Testament authors didn't

[00:29:50] care about the question that they're just using whatever text they had available yeah they didn't

[00:29:55] sort of pour all of this angst about things they're like okay I'm writing this audience I'm in

[00:30:01] anti-Alt, lo and behold I looked up the copy of Isaiah 6 in anti-Altion this is what it said and then

[00:30:06] maybe I tweaked a little bit I dropped a word I summarized it because we do that when we preach

[00:30:11] it's almost like they didn't seem stressed about it because they're like they're just using God's word

[00:30:17] to preach you know they just didn't feel as like uptight about it is right and so anyway we'll see

[00:30:22] and we'll see where it goes well maybe we wouldn't if we lived in those days right you know

[00:30:26] does I mean quotations standards are so different there is no app with the Bible on it in that day

[00:30:31] I mean the printing press era the digital air makes everything so different where we think

[00:30:35] it's like when the ESV not to throw stones at them all they said we're now doing the permanent

[00:30:39] addition in 2016 and the ESV and everyone pitched to fit like what are you talking about this

[00:30:43] is it forever for the next 500 years are never changing and they backed off of that because

[00:30:48] by look English changes we update stuff we find new manuscripts that maybe correct our reading

[00:30:53] so like there's a new addition of revelation coming out by the Brainiacs in Germany and it'll

[00:30:59] it'll impact the future editions of the Greek New Testament and it has a hundred changes in it

[00:31:03] I don't know what they are yet hasn't hasn't hasn't haven't bought it yet but so it's like

[00:31:07] all right what are you going to do with that because now we think based on our evidence that we've

[00:31:11] gathered over the past 50 years then actually we need to tweak it here and there and this is a

[00:31:14] better version of revelation so that kind of stuff if you were the Gen Z Bible is that the one

[00:31:20] with like emojis and stuff or I don't know it's got all kinds of Gen Z you would love oh nice you

[00:31:25] love it so point being it was it just was a profoundly different world and so maybe part of

[00:31:32] the Septuania stuff sort of getting back to like hey let's let's be historically grounded and

[00:31:36] hey we don't have to panic but also let's know really what's happening back then I find it

[00:31:42] to be really interesting and engaging but so what do we do when I'm using an example in

[00:31:49] the New Testament that's notable where there's a quotation from Septuagint that the wording is

[00:31:54] clearly very different from oh sure they're self wrong yeah from the Hebrew and when you come across

[00:31:59] that you know how do we think through that yeah so you know a good example I had my computer in front

[00:32:09] of me I could do a better job with this but in Romans 15 Paul quotes a bunch of Old Testament

[00:32:16] passages kind of that's the clinch's argument and mostly from Isaiah or Deuteronomy or what have you

[00:32:22] and he's trying to like seal the deal on his argument that the saving the salvific fate of Jews

[00:32:29] and Gentiles has been intertwined in the purposes of God he's been riffing on that as a way to bring

[00:32:33] unity to the church at Rome and the competing factions of Jews and Gentiles so that's why he's

[00:32:38] done Abraham he's Remy's not through 11 and all those kinds of things so in Romans 15 he's dancing

[00:32:43] around different places and one of the quotations from Isaiah very clearly the wording is only

[00:32:52] from the Greek there and it's essentially it's the crescendo of a comment that actually this was

[00:32:59] from Deuteronomy Deuteronomy 32 not Isaiah where in Moses' farewell song one of these verses

[00:33:07] concludes with and the nations will hope in his name and for Paul's like exactly and the hymn

[00:33:13] is what he's getting at yeah whereas the Hebrew and again if I had my computer from me I could

[00:33:20] quote it better but sort of going off memory is I think something like the coast lands a weight

[00:33:25] his law or something on this line so don't quote me on that but it's like yeah that's obviously not

[00:33:31] the same yeah but you can make a pretty good argument that the translator of Isaiah of Deuteronomy

[00:33:37] Isaiah I'm confusing my categories here but it's been a long day they're doing a faithful

[00:33:43] paraphrastic translation and Paul's like great I'm just gonna use that or maybe he wasn't even

[00:33:52] aware right he could have just been like this is just the version that I've memorized growing up

[00:33:56] or it could be a different Hebrew version that we don't have so for me I don't worry too much about

[00:34:02] because Paul did what he did and either he's adopting something that does better fit his argument

[00:34:09] because maybe he thought it was a better translation or version he uses is the same as the Hebrew

[00:34:14] he was aware of and just isn't the same as the Hebrew that we have today or something like that so I

[00:34:19] don't I don't lose my sleep over. What is the meaning different like if the is a meaning contained

[00:34:23] within the Hebrew that maybe the translations are gloss of it or yeah that's all I think that's

[00:34:29] often the case. Okay yeah other cases where the the Septuagint has a verse that it translated to

[00:34:39] where the actual meaning is changed that's not what the Hebrew author is trying to say.

[00:34:47] I guess one question would be like who decides that and I'm not trying to be like

[00:34:54] no no it's because modernist but what am I trying to say here. I don't think there are any

[00:35:04] major situations where there's a massive difference and the reason why I'm sort of hesitating

[00:35:12] here is the thing that you can never really answer and this is something that once you get in the

[00:35:17] weeds the Septuagint scholarship becomes so clear is you don't always know what the Septuagint

[00:35:24] translator is even translating from. Does that make sense? So whenever you read books on the

[00:35:28] Septuagint they're like oh this is different like but it could be different because either they

[00:35:32] were doing some sort of weird interpretation that doesn't it was a meaning of the original

[00:35:37] or they just had a different Hebrew right and they're doing a perfectly fine translation

[00:35:43] from a Hebrew that we no longer have and it's just really hard to ever prove or disprove

[00:35:49] either one of those options and so that would mean that there was another Hebrew that you'd

[00:35:53] have two Hebrew variants that they contradict each other. Um I mean it depends yeah

[00:36:00] contradiction is probably not the term I would use but yes you definitely have

[00:36:05] Hebrew variations in the history you know historical traditions so one example would be

[00:36:10] the ordering of the ten commandments so the six seventh and eighth commandments in the

[00:36:14] maseritic text are don't don't commit murder kill don't commit adultery don't steal murder

[00:36:21] adultery theft and so that in excess twenty doodermy five that's the order. Same order shows up

[00:36:28] in another Semitic languages but the oldest copy of Deuteronomy that we have is something known

[00:36:33] as the Nash Papyrus it doesn't go in that order and then if you look at the quote unquote Septuagint

[00:36:39] of excess twenty it's also not that order you look at Deuteronomy in the quote-unquest Septuagint

[00:36:46] is yet another different order adultery murder stealing or stealing adultery murder or whatever

[00:36:51] this all these permutation and when you look at the New Testament Matthew goes one way Luke goes

[00:36:57] another way Paul goes a different way James goes a different way they don't all agree on the same

[00:37:01] order of those three sub that sub-drupic mammoths and so you're like well what do you do with that

[00:37:05] I don't know what you do with that and that's just the data it appears based on the Nash Papyrus

[00:37:10] that there was a different Hebrew ordering that isn't the same thing as a maseritic right now it

[00:37:16] doesn't make a big difference not really but it's it is true I mean we just know that that we have

[00:37:21] this kinds of things and again I don't I don't think our doctorate scriptures like jettison the rock

[00:37:26] to go to that our doctorate scripture says that inspiration happens in the original autographs which

[00:37:35] we don't actually have thankfully because we would turn them into some sort of amusement park

[00:37:39] and idolatrous thing if they turned the bronze serpent into an idol nachooshed on imagine what

[00:37:46] they would do if we actually had you know right writings of Moses so but that the fact that God has

[00:37:51] in his I think in his wise provenance prevented us from having the actual this is what Moses wrote

[00:37:58] uh I think is actually a kindness but the downside is the copying process was not

[00:38:05] perfect across the board right I mean never is and so you do have different Hebrew copies

[00:38:10] and you just deal with the data so so I mean the reality is if you look at your English Bible

[00:38:14] yes we included many many times they don't accept the maseritic reading even though on the

[00:38:21] whole they do but there are plenty of times where they say the maseritic says this

[00:38:26] but we're going with this alternative because we think that actually is probably authentic and that

[00:38:31] the maseritic is wrong and all the English Bibles do that uh as that makes sense so you're saying

[00:38:37] that when they choose the Saturian over the maseritic it's because they think that that's tracing

[00:38:42] to a more accurate tradition and maybe we don't have what we might not have it in Hebrew

[00:38:49] but we have it in Greek and the Greek comes from the Hebrew and it's different and therefore

[00:38:54] it might be better we just don't and that's where the nerds kind of get together and try to sort it

[00:38:58] all out it's a very complicated right arguments um and you have to handle a case by case so again

[00:39:04] to be clear on the whole the maseritic text I think best encapsulates our our best approximation

[00:39:14] of what we think God inspired Moses and Ezra and everyone to write David uh but even the maserites

[00:39:21] didn't think it was perfect right that's why they're making footnotes and comments and margins

[00:39:25] saying actually it says this but it should mean this and they do the vowels differently whatever

[00:39:30] so if you when you take Hebrew you learn all these kinds of things so even the maserites weren't

[00:39:34] under the impression that they had perfectly preserved it right because they were fallible and so

[00:39:38] we we just roll up our sleeves and do the hard work is saying all right here's the evidence what do

[00:39:41] we think best we can tell the original text what it said and that's a process that we got through

[00:39:48] so yeah um and so point being there could be competing options and you sort it out I don't again

[00:39:57] I don't think that's like yeah that's a that's a fraction of them but they're important I think

[00:40:02] some of these things are more scary when they're unexamined yeah then when you actually get and

[00:40:06] you're like oh you know what it's it's more complicated than I thought but the mere the mere

[00:40:12] presence of complication doesn't mean you know that you have to write your doctor into iteration or

[00:40:18] anything like that and and the fact that even people just gotta have a better doctor of inspiration

[00:40:21] yeah actually fundamentally that's what it's about so I mean if you ask Will or ask me you know

[00:40:25] working on this up to agent has that college you liked out things like no actually it's called it

[00:40:29] even though sometimes it seems scary yeah right and you ask these questions

[00:40:35] uh and I asked those questions too the more you do the research the more you

[00:40:39] okay A it is way more complicated than I probably realized but there are good answers or at least

[00:40:47] we're trying to come up with a way to wrestle with the data honestly and also you know

[00:40:52] confessually and faithfully and uh I'm happy that there are you know people out there that are

[00:40:57] that are doing the work um to try to say look the bad option is to look at some of the messy

[00:41:03] complicated data and just say Bible is foulable that's an option an option that many people take

[00:41:09] but I think there's a much better option which is it's complicated and we don't always have all the

[00:41:14] answers but here's the direction to kind of approximate the answer and affirm what we're persuaded

[00:41:22] needs to be affirmed about the nature of God's words uh well you said something

[00:41:27] uh last night about how you know we don't want to have a brittle

[00:41:33] understanding of inspiration and scripture and uh and also that you know

[00:41:38] you can still for the laypers you can you can trust you know the Bible we don't have to be I guess

[00:41:43] a panicky about these kinds of things um but it's important to look into them right you know

[00:41:49] uh and I remember you saying too it's it's actually remarkable how much

[00:41:53] is preserved like how much agreement there is like you were talking about the New Testament canon

[00:41:57] among all the traditions but the fact that there is an agreement is remarkable or the fact that we do

[00:42:01] actually have a masoretic text is remarkable right the Dead Sea Scrolls or stuff like that sometimes

[00:42:06] we can only look at the the complicated stuff and not realize right how much we take for granted

[00:42:12] it's there yeah and even you know so if you think of other literature my esteemed colleague in

[00:42:18] Orlando was talking about this recently in a faculty meeting that um you take something like the

[00:42:22] epic of Gilgamesh very famous read in high school and he said actually one of the things is kind

[00:42:27] of interesting and sort of akadian kineiform studies is that like there's not really the epic of

[00:42:32] Gilgamesh which you have is a plural tradition of okay well there's this version and there's that

[00:42:39] version there's that version that same thing is true like of the ilyan I mean even Shakespeare kind

[00:42:43] of has lots of complexities and so I mean it's not surprising that we would see

[00:42:50] complexity in the data same thing is true with anything because again they don't have computers

[00:42:54] they don't have google drive um and so even though goddess is super intending the process to preserve his

[00:43:01] word there's you know scribes and copyists just weren't perfect all the time and so we uh

[00:43:11] so you can either ignore that or sort of chalk it up like conspiracy theory blah blah blah you

[00:43:16] can either run with it and say okay we can't trust the bible at all or you can say all right

[00:43:21] fair enough so let's go and do the hard work to sort all this out and it has a much more

[00:43:27] healthy actually placed to be and well I mean if it's you think if it's like a historical document

[00:43:33] if it's passed through transmission through time if it's a pre-modern you know there uh yeah

[00:43:38] it's like what do you expect right kind of thing yeah it actually makes it feel more real and

[00:43:43] historical that like yeah these are ancient these are really ancient texts people really did

[00:43:48] read them write them you know like and something on a flip it actually makes it feel more

[00:43:54] just real right and I think you can do that and still affirm that the original Hebrew and

[00:44:03] original Greek right word directly verbally organically inspired by God right we don't have to go

[00:44:08] and say it was all just a message right right right and so what our goal is to say all right we

[00:44:13] believe that is a proposition that actually when we're talking about this this morning that's

[00:44:16] actually what scripture attest about itself right that it is spirit given in the words

[00:44:22] and you're like but we don't have that and so what do we do we got all of this and from all of

[00:44:26] this what we're trying to do and bright minds working on it for a long time is say all right well how

[00:44:31] do we work backwards to get to that right and right I would say you know we're 99.9% of the way

[00:44:38] there and then you throw in the Septuagint and that makes it the Septuagint for me is actually one

[00:44:41] of the usefulness one of the things where it's really useful is that yes there's the New Testament

[00:44:46] use of it and that's all important and interesting but it's actually really interesting when it comes

[00:44:51] to helping us reconstruct the Hebrew because it's you know the copies that we have of the Septuagint

[00:44:58] centuries earlier than what is translated in your ESV and Avi which is the maseritic text

[00:45:04] and so most of the time it confirms so like if you think maseritic text is a thousand AD

[00:45:13] the Greek translation of Deuteronomy or whatever goes back to 200 BC right the 1200 years

[00:45:21] that's a long time and this striking thing is and as will and I do all this work and we're comparing

[00:45:27] these editions and so on and various projects we're working on together it's actually pretty stunning

[00:45:31] how often they are exactly the same yeah even though one is in Greek it's like that's exactly what

[00:45:36] that should be based on the Hebrew you know like man that means that it was very stable like mind

[00:45:43] bogglingly stable for over a millennium which is when you just think statistically speaking gods

[00:45:48] got to be at work and that right right but in other words when you have the wording that we use

[00:45:53] and in most cases you go way way way back to say this at duoden and you see a separate you

[00:45:57] know see wording like yep those all line up and those match over a millennium plus time break

[00:46:03] and so then you're left with like a handful that don't like all right let's just work on that

[00:46:06] why is that and so for me it's like I'm actually like kind of surprised there's not more

[00:46:12] yeah in the fact that there aren't so do you okay gods that work here and providence is real

[00:46:18] now does that mean that everyone in this process all agreed all the time no but of course they

[00:46:22] wouldn't right when have we ever done that you got to sensationalize the exceptions you know

[00:46:29] like that with the risk yeah I mean the risk is if you want to be maximally skeptical and critical

[00:46:34] then you would take the exceptions and say see we told you you can't trust the Bible like yeah

[00:46:38] but you're ignoring all of this exactly yeah it take the desi scrolls another example which is

[00:46:42] kind of adjacent to the septuogen a lot of work on the desi scrolls in recent years as

[00:46:46] especially with new ones that we've been able to crack the code some of the ones that were like

[00:46:49] burned and we were able to digitally unroll them some copies of Leviticus and so forth

[00:46:53] some of the oldest things we have and they're like all right this is from 300 BC and it's this

[00:47:00] chart fragment of Leviticus and we use CT machines and all you know all kinds of stuff to

[00:47:05] Dr. Cypher it and like wow it I think I think one of them it was 100% match really with the

[00:47:14] maseratic from 1300 years later yeah that's astounding that like describe for that good right where

[00:47:21] they always that good no but who is and I guess you could see I messed up things all the time and

[00:47:28] now I have word you know right right right and you make a lot of charts too I make a lot of

[00:47:33] a lot of things yeah a lot of chance to make mistakes but I guess you could even project backwards if

[00:47:39] from the desi scrolls to the maseratic text there's a strong transmission and the septuogen would be

[00:47:43] a kind of same kind of evidence you could also go backwards I mean like why would they

[00:47:47] you could I think you could reasonably say there's probably a strong transmission

[00:47:53] from before the desi scrolls well I mean that so that's the step that we all have to grapple with

[00:47:58] right so you get to a certain point where you don't have any older copies right right and so

[00:48:02] and same thing is true for the new test yeah and so there is an inductive step that we need to be

[00:48:07] honest about we're saying okay the oldest copy of whatever it is is dated here but we know it was written

[00:48:14] 900 years prior to that whatever and we don't have copies from them right and so um we just have

[00:48:19] to be honest that's like okay we're doing our that's why we say we're doing our best to faithfully

[00:48:23] reconstruct the evidence that we have what we think got inspired um because we don't have that

[00:48:30] and same thing is true on the new testament it's not quite as big a window of time

[00:48:34] uh and I think based on the downstream evidence that you're talking about

[00:48:39] you know where these things match up over millennium I think we have good reason to work our way

[00:48:44] upstream but we have to be honest that that we are making an inductive step that makes sense yeah

[00:48:51] and I mean we just send a new testament earliest manuscripts we have are 150 to 225 and they're

[00:48:56] just little fragments and then you start to get fuller copies much later and so with all the work

[00:49:01] that we as tech script owners do to try to kind of work our way back we reach a point where it's

[00:49:06] like okay we don't have any more manuscripts to get us back to 50 right we're at 200 and so it's

[00:49:13] basically a question of okay what's the most likely presupposition that in that 150 year period

[00:49:20] it was a faithfully divinely guided process of transmission that then continues after that

[00:49:26] or is it like the crazy wild wall west and so that's where new testament scholars very much divide

[00:49:31] where I'm in the camp of I do think we have good reasons to make that inductive step backwards

[00:49:34] but others don't they think well there's just you just can't you know a whole bunch of assumptions

[00:49:38] baked into that that's ultimately that's where you're gonna have your professional faith and so forth

[00:49:43] come to the table maybe switching gears a little bit with the Septuagint um so you know this

[00:49:49] this morning you talked a little bit about the Deutera canonical books the apocrypha

[00:49:53] right tobit Judith or second macabees all those things that um were those included in the Septuagint

[00:50:02] what's the Septuagint again no that's right yeah well was the translator the people who

[00:50:07] were working on the broad project of this of translating the old that's a better way to say

[00:50:12] the Old Testament Hebrew text how did they view those books that Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics

[00:50:20] although their canon was differ except as part of the Old Testament canon how did those Jews

[00:50:25] who were translating the Septuagint view those books we don't know because they didn't tell us

[00:50:34] at least by and large and some were translations and some weren't actually so wisdom of Solomon

[00:50:39] almost certainly was not a translation of anything in the hybrids clearly just original composition

[00:50:44] just written in Greek there was no there's no Hebrew version was a Solomon yeah

[00:50:49] epistle of Jeremiah probably the same first macabees you can make a case that there was a Hebrew

[00:50:55] source text we don't have a copy of it uh we do have some fragments of some of the others

[00:51:01] that that show that there was a original Hebrew text that had been translated so it's a bit of

[00:51:05] a mixed bag and we know for certain that Syrac is a translation right because they tell us that

[00:51:10] this grandson who's been seers grandson say hey my grandfather wrote this in Hebrew and I'm translating

[00:51:15] it's really hard um so that out of the gate is actually pretty important that is not all the same

[00:51:23] kind of thing and in fact historically speaking it's really honestly kind of a random coincidence

[00:51:30] that they even got treated as an entity they're not really an entity anymore so then all the other

[00:51:36] Jewish stuff like first Enoch second Enoch sention of Isaiah uh our sention of Martin of Isaiah

[00:51:42] Testament of Moses testions a bunch of stuff right and some of it's also cumeron right yeah the only

[00:51:48] reason why they got treated separately is the three major were really four but the three major

[00:51:56] later Greek major codices which we all see used for the New Testament that have both old and

[00:52:02] New Testament in them uh Vaticanus Soniaticus and Alexander and Drinas have a mixed bag of these

[00:52:08] writings in them uh and so on the Greek Orthodox side they never really tell you which manuscript

[00:52:15] they're going with and they don't all agree you saw that this morning so Soniaticus has some

[00:52:20] Vaticanus has some Alexander and Drinas kind of has a maximal list but also throws in some other

[00:52:25] random things yeah so there is no like coherency there nor that they don't have them all in the same

[00:52:31] place they're stuck here and there they don't all like treat them as an appendix or anything they're

[00:52:35] just kind of all scattered and um so it's actually uh I've never been able to personally find in any

[00:52:41] sort of Greek Orthodox documentation which manuscript they think has the right apocrypha

[00:52:46] so you're saying which manuscript which Greek which Greek manuscript if you read sort of Greek

[00:52:52] Orthodox documentation from the Patriarchate in their their Bibles and so forth they'll say we

[00:52:56] believe that the Greek Old Testament so they don't even bother with the Hebrew at all not really

[00:53:02] so it's not even for the normal books Genesis whatever so their version of Genesis is not the

[00:53:07] masquerade I think it's okay at least if they're consistent yeah but they never really tell you like

[00:53:12] which collection are we using because they don't all agree like the the manuscripts that we have

[00:53:16] these Greek Bible in don't even agree amongst themselves so it's actually this weird thing is

[00:53:20] like well which one are you using because they don't all agree anyway so I don't I don't really know

[00:53:25] what to do with that when it comes to the Remacafelix out of the coin is a very different historical

[00:53:29] background as you know uh so the early church followers are grappling with the fact that hey

[00:53:36] there's these extra books running around people are aware of them and they're interesting and useful

[00:53:41] and so forth um and so what do we do with them essentially was their question and origin and

[00:53:46] Augustine and Jerome they kind of had different answers to that and so Jerome ultimately

[00:53:50] uh brilliant scholar who actually in contrast to most of the others what origin was brilliant as well

[00:53:56] they all are but you know Augustine didn't know Hebrew as an example um but Jerome said I

[00:54:01] you know fundamentally I'm persuaded and he's right here uh as I've already attested he's like okay

[00:54:07] God's scriptures are fundamentally the Hebrew scriptures he's the one who had that insight

[00:54:12] like yeah yeah I know where he's in Greek fair enough because we have to and how many other

[00:54:15] option not I was not he brook except for me which is why he spent some time in Jerusalem when

[00:54:19] in Hebrew he's like I Hebrew is the thing right that we want to get back to uh and so when I he

[00:54:24] originally was just working with septuogen when he was doing some early translations to Latin but

[00:54:29] eventually he had a sort of come to Jesus memories is actually we got to go back to the Hebrew

[00:54:34] so I'm going to go and give you a Latin translation of penituc et cetera from the Hebrew and that

[00:54:40] become that became the voglia uh and he had all these commentaries about how he did it and so

[00:54:44] and he was very aware like okay sometimes the Greek says is sometimes the Hebrew says this but the

[00:54:48] the Hebrew's right okay so fair enough uh but he's like you know what there's all these other books

[00:54:52] running around and we have our spiritual debates about what to do with them I'm going to go ahead

[00:54:57] translate them and he kind of puts them in an appendix sort of uh he's like but he's very clear

[00:55:02] about this in all his his prologues we don't treat these as the same he says look they're interesting

[00:55:07] they're helpful they're not gonna like make your eyes burn out if you read them it'll be okay

[00:55:12] but don't use these to establish doctrine and so it was his choice to take some of these apocrypha

[00:55:19] and translate them into Latin because they were in most of these bibles it's like I'm going to do

[00:55:23] it but like don't use them the same way that you would use the other books and unfortunately especially

[00:55:30] when you get to the Reformation era uh because essentially what the Protestants did is they said all right

[00:55:35] we're scrapping the vulgar I mean kind of uh they still often use the language but they're

[00:55:42] say okay we're gonna go back to the original so we're gonna go back to the Hebrew and Greek which is

[00:55:44] what Jerome would have wanted them to do anyway because that was the kind of guy he was so we're

[00:55:49] gonna not use the vulgar anymore we're gonna go back to the Hebrew and Greek but Jerome's right

[00:55:54] like there's these other books and they're interesting but they're not to be used to establish

[00:55:58] doctrine and so their early Reformation bibles all had the apocrypha in them typically as some sort

[00:56:04] of appendix or like in between it wasn't a little bit later that they started to even just pull them

[00:56:08] all together and there were a Catholic look at that and said no that's anathema if you don't accept

[00:56:12] these deuterionic book is anathema so they actually ironically kept the vulgar but rejected Jerome's

[00:56:20] instructions which is these books are helpful but not dogmatic and what they did is they said

[00:56:26] they are dogmatic and they we they call it second can and deuterion can which doesn't mean secondary

[00:56:32] it's actually fully canonical it's just the second can it which is completely against what

[00:56:37] Jerome had in mind from the very beginning why didn't his opinion went out I don't know actually

[00:56:40] I mean I think it I think you know this is actually pretty instructive my my guess is I'm not like

[00:56:46] a Reformation scholar but my sense is it's one of those things where the polemical

[00:56:51] environment of the day really led the decision which is I think important for us all to realize that

[00:56:56] a lot of times our our lines in the sand are more like this is a line in the sand because we're

[00:57:02] fighting about this right now I mean think about anything you read on the internet it's like oh

[00:57:05] this now became a line of sand well that's because we're mad about it right right now because

[00:57:10] there's like a compelling like about the Bible tells us we have to down this hill and so I think

[00:57:14] they died on the hill because it was a point of dispute with the Protestants and because some of

[00:57:19] the doctrines that the Protestants were pushing on super-regatory merit purgatory penance alms

[00:57:29] and so forth were largely derived from apocryphal writings not from the accepted

[00:57:35] what about like they had to keep it otherwise they had to admit a problem right well what about

[00:57:40] after Jerome though like before the Reformation it seems like the apocryphal was adopted

[00:57:45] is that is that fair to say or it's Jerome in the Reformation it's like just like to find that

[00:57:51] adopted I mean the church fathers quote from lots of different things coming about exandery and

[00:57:58] others they quote from everything all the time including apocryphal books and see the paperful

[00:58:04] books and all kinds of things so it probably depends on who you ask but I think there is probably

[00:58:09] and it's a little bit wonky but you know if you look at the history of the church before before

[00:58:16] the big split most probably were quoting from making use of the apocryphal however the proportions

[00:58:27] are skewed way in the direction of the traditional books so it seems like there was this it's marginal

[00:58:34] there was still dispute after Jerome I don't know well they kind of well not really because even after

[00:58:39] Jerome when you get to the early canon list like Athanasius yeah 100 years after Jerome it is the

[00:58:44] 39 books okay there's no real debate and not including the apocryphal okay because again they

[00:58:49] weren't really like that's the weird thing is Jerome's not Jerome's like hey here's some extra

[00:58:53] books I just threw them in there right but they're not scriptural and everyone's like sure if

[00:58:57] fair enough so I can quote from them doesn't mean that they're canonical and then when he gets to

[00:59:00] the canon list is like these are the books not as we saw this morning some of the canon list did

[00:59:03] throw a few of them in there most of the time that was because of misunderstanding so it wasn't like

[00:59:07] they were going to they're like Jerome's like I'm not sure about these and you're like well we

[00:59:11] really want you to be sure about the I know most they're like okay and then later on they

[00:59:15] you know I guess yeah yeah no I see where you're going now so like the canon list that we have

[00:59:20] which does not many but the canon list that we have leading up to Athanasius being the kind of final

[00:59:23] band one in 367 the festival letter they're kind of all over the board in terms of they all

[00:59:30] agree on the traditional Old Testament books and then and there's like 12 of them that matter

[00:59:35] and you can look look them up in the the book by John meat and Ed Gallagher where they document

[00:59:40] all this kind of stuff and so they they sort of go through all these lists from various people

[00:59:44] climaxing with that and after Athanasius is kind of they there's no real debate anymore but

[00:59:49] they all accept the 39 or have everyone a number of them books that we have and then some of them

[00:59:53] include some some extra books none of them have all of them um and it's a mixed bag you know

[00:59:59] it's like randomly someone will throw a toe bit on the list yeah they're like why and then you

[01:00:05] see this is like he's the one who's most clear he's saying here's the books we all agree on

[01:00:09] here's the books we debate and here's why or why not they should be like voted off the island if

[01:00:14] you will so he's very clear and sort of saying here's kind of where the debate lies and these are

[01:00:18] the disputed ones and these are the undisputed ones and so on so they're all very kind of no one's

[01:00:23] hiding anything they're all yes they are debating them but by and large the weight of agreement is

[01:00:28] on Jerome's side he ultimately won the argument but there's always the sort of like yeah but let's

[01:00:32] throw Susanna and bell on the dragon in there whatever it's like okay well he when did he win the

[01:00:36] argument because I hear from like Roman Catholic apologists will say that then you just have this sort of

[01:00:42] like okay people were debating about the apocrypha whether it should be in or out or which one should

[01:00:48] be in don't you need a point where we go these are the ones that are in he's like why did like when did

[01:00:55] Jerome win it seems like in my mind Jerome I mean he's in the 200s yeah and early he had this idea

[01:01:01] and then like nobody listened to him until the reformation or something well I mean the idea was

[01:01:05] the old idea right is that I mean this is what we're going over this morning is that all the evidence

[01:01:11] suggests long before you get to Jerome that there was a solidified threefold cannon right in

[01:01:16] Sierra you see that and that's he scrolls four q in empty you see that in loop 24

[01:01:22] just see if this oh I see so he's just going look if we look at the Jews they understand what the

[01:01:27] cannon is why aren't we yeah so he's like believe it's very clear okay the Jewish the Hebrew

[01:01:33] cannon of the Jews is the cannon yeah Augustin and origin was based for like yeah but you know but

[01:01:41] also like people used the Greek too so maybe we should do he was kind of waffling in Augustin

[01:01:46] actually changes mind over the course of time because of Jerome but the gustan was originally like

[01:01:50] the church uses all these Greek books so we can't too and then oh he changes mind the

[01:01:54] gustan was like and the Hebrew doesn't matter and Jerome's like actually based on Matthew quoting

[01:01:59] the Jose thing some other passages he's like no no no sometimes the apostles go back to the Hebrew

[01:02:04] too by the way you know gustan's like oh yeah interesting all right fair enough so some of his

[01:02:07] later letters he's like yeah okay the Hebrew is important too and yeah then we should probably

[01:02:12] pay attention to that he never quite crosses the Rebicon but I'm aware of but after them it's kind

[01:02:18] of like it's basically settled that the Hebrew cannon is the cannon and then the question is all right

[01:02:23] what do we do with why the pistol Jeremiah that's kind is that part of Jeremiah or not you know

[01:02:27] that's kind of where some of the picture it's not true that after Jerome

[01:02:33] it's you go from some debate among some people to it's dying off and no one's no one's saying like

[01:02:39] art you get to pick it's just like what are we using what's how it's just a it's just same thing

[01:02:45] it's true for the New Testament but there's no magic steering on who's gonna lay down the law they're

[01:02:49] not looking anyone to tell us they're just saying right well okay this part of the empire does this

[01:02:52] and we think this and and where are we on this and that's what you see me is trying to say kind of here's

[01:02:56] where the state of the question is but it's really close to being kind of fully sussed out in Jerome's

[01:03:03] direction okay so Hebrew books are the books everything else is interesting useful but not dogmatic

[01:03:10] and so even if like at the time of the Reformation you know or right before it when most of the

[01:03:16] Pew Bibles have had the apocrypha because if that's the case it seems like Jerome's opinion didn't

[01:03:23] win well what would the pew Bible have been for Europe at least it will be in the vulgar

[01:03:28] in the vulgar so what does the vulgar have in it his a caveat well it has the it has the apocrypha but

[01:03:33] it may or may not have had his caveat right interesting okay well you go to Palestine right and

[01:03:40] because there there is like the I mean that's the thing you got you got part of the empire has converted

[01:03:46] to Latin yeah and their Bible is the vulgar okay the vulgar has the apocrypha yeah that Jerome said

[01:03:51] yeah this is interesting but don't use this to establish canonical doctrine and that's what they

[01:03:54] ignored the Greek East Byzantium is using what the Greek Old Testament that had some of the apocrypha

[01:04:01] and then the Palestinian communities using what the Hebrew the Hebrew text that ultimately becomes the

[01:04:07] the maseratic text from the sort of Babylonian period of crystallization so you have

[01:04:13] that's kind of where the in the sort of in between that's kind of what you have right um

[01:04:18] and so then the Protestants come along and say okay we're going to follow drones lead go back to

[01:04:22] the Hebrew um and some of the early confessions I mean it's all calm this that it's almost like Jerome

[01:04:30] the guy who's like don't make this part of the canon his work becomes the reason why it became

[01:04:36] viewed as part of the canon at least for the Remacats at least for those who were using his translation

[01:04:41] you gotcha yeah wow that is that is really and his insight is ultimately what the the early reformers

[01:04:46] adopted yeah like if you you know Westminster confession is the most negative towards the apocrypha

[01:04:50] but you look at the Belgian confession some of the others 39 articles uh they're they're less kind

[01:04:56] of strident earlier on the 1500s so you get to the Westminster 100 years of past and they're

[01:05:02] more strident and like apocrypha bad early on it was more like apocrypha not canonical

[01:05:08] but useful for edification which is exactly Jerome's language but there's just like we're

[01:05:13] going to go back to the Greek and Hebrew and then I think because you have that decision on the

[01:05:19] Protestant side that you have an equal and opposite Roman Catholic response which is all right if

[01:05:23] you're gonna do that then we're gonna dial it to the 11 on the evolgate and we're gonna

[01:05:28] dial it to the 11 on the apocrypha two which okay so no one had been doing that's the thing right

[01:05:33] no one had been taking the apocrypha as equal yeah and i'm other than the Greek Orthodox but

[01:05:38] from very different reasons yeah uh but within the Roman West i don't think that's how they were taking

[01:05:45] those books and then the line gets drawn in the sand right that in the 1500s that's when well

[01:05:50] what was helpful about your presentation and we'll put a link to that in the show notes so you

[01:05:53] guys can watch it is that you kind of start talking with the content of some of the deuter

[01:05:58] orconical deuter canonical books the apocrypha and you talk about like like a bird poo on it

[01:06:04] yeah some of them are fun yeah let me see a bird poo on a guy or something like that is interesting

[01:06:08] yeah yeah and but even but even some more serious ones where you talked about uh Ben Sira

[01:06:14] who's that Sira Ben Sira where uh he he's basically saying like he defines along the prophets he

[01:06:21] basically that within the apocrypha text they recognize an already existing canon that their writing

[01:06:27] is not a part of right like first Mac of you and second Mac does that yeah so it's like I'm sure

[01:06:31] that's probably what tipped off Jerome uh yeah I don't know in terms of how to look at people

[01:06:37] I mean it seems very clear that like why would they want to include it with with that much internal

[01:06:43] evidence yeah I mean that for me if I had to sort of pick a place to go in this conversation I think

[01:06:48] the Ben Sira one is probably the most interesting yeah because it was definitely the most debated

[01:06:53] among the rabbis um he was a canonical status and well in terms of you know god picks can and not us

[01:07:00] but in terms of so the way the rabbis discuss it uh in the early centuries before you get to the

[01:07:06] full listing and the Talmud which ends up being the same listing that we adopt um in the Babylonian

[01:07:12] Talmud the way they describe uh the books is our our which books quote unquote defile the hands

[01:07:21] and what that means is there holy books that we must treat with respect and if we're unclean they

[01:07:27] def you know it's kind of a strange puzzling way they describe it uh and so no one doubted Torah

[01:07:34] no one doubted prophets a couple of the what ultimately become part of the writings like Song of

[01:07:39] Solomon and Klesiastes yeah there was a debate on this for fairly obvious reasons we still

[01:07:43] kind of grapple with like what's going on with Song of Solomon um and the one the only apocryphal book

[01:07:49] that they really had any debate over was Ben Sira and that's because A it was demonstrative from

[01:07:53] Hebrew because he was a Hebrew rabbi and call it 200 BC and he was world famous one of the best they

[01:07:59] had pre like Gamali El and so Hebrew Hebrew origin was really important yeah yeah um and so he wrote

[01:08:05] in Hebrew and there was a world famous rabbi and so he writes these things and we have Hebrew copies

[01:08:12] and we also have the Greek and then his grandson translates and the grandson says uh we have many

[01:08:17] things in the law of Moses the prophets and the writings that followed so he gives a three it's the

[01:08:22] earliest threefold canon that we see and call it 150ish BC in Paul Park uh and then he says

[01:08:30] in my grandfather um soft fit to write something for edification and so the grandson who's like

[01:08:40] I'm and I want to translate this into Greek so people can read it and it's really hard because Greek is

[01:08:44] hard it's kind of funny what he says uh he says it's really hard to go from Hebrew to Greek like

[01:08:49] join my world um uh it's I think it's remarkable that the person who's responsible for

[01:08:57] the what becomes the dutero canonical version of Ben Sira's work says that there is a threefold canon

[01:09:07] and this isn't part of it but like how does that not just end up the debate I don't know it's

[01:09:12] in my opinion it should yeah like I don't think there's a rejoinder to that yeah unless you're

[01:09:17] simply saying well you know the Pope said so and overrode him I'm like well that makes like if the

[01:09:24] grandson of Ben Sira says that my father thought that what he is doing is just helpful things

[01:09:32] right wise advice for your kids and it's not the same thing as the law of the prophets and the writings

[01:09:39] for me that's like well authorial intent is kind of a big deal here and he does not see himself

[01:09:44] writing canonical covenant documentation same thing by the way it's true in second-macket

[01:09:50] which is part of the apocryphal but actually specifies we have the law of the prophets and the

[01:09:54] oracles of David and newsflash second-macket means ain't it right so both of those two I'm like

[01:10:00] I don't know how you respond to that but so if there is a if they have that awareness why did

[01:10:06] the Septuagin authors not just say these are well I guess it's that's like why was there a debate

[01:10:16] for including the Septuagin for including the apocryphal in the different Septuagin

[01:10:21] editions because I don't know if they were debating it like so if you're

[01:10:24] who they had an understanding of these whoever is compiling codex Vaticanus and they're like all right

[01:10:29] we got the normal books got the New Testament yeah and here's some other stuff we're gonna throw in

[01:10:34] like whoever is compiling that codex and it's not just one person whatever reason said hey let's

[01:10:40] throw in and random places some of these other things it's possible that that person thought

[01:10:47] that those books were canonical but who's like that doesn't mean anything but the Jews who were

[01:10:51] translating and these are Christians by the way who are compiling these codices right but for

[01:10:57] this for this Septuagin if this is before Jesus day when they're trying to know he could have

[01:11:03] had a canister much later right right 350 AD so right but the uh

[01:11:09] what weren't you saying though like the New Testament's quoting from a Greek translation

[01:11:13] sometimes yeah right and that Greek translation that people are translating that

[01:11:18] that isn't is that the Septuagin am I come completely missing this

[01:11:22] it's a Septuagin a pre-Gospels document oh well and it depends on how you define Septuagin

[01:11:29] the effort to translate the Hebrew text into Greek starts well before the New Testament

[01:11:36] starts in 300 to 50 pieces but they don't have like a completed one necessarily

[01:11:41] there are some that it's unclear when they were translated I guess pretty clear that you got

[01:11:47] the Torah the earliest probably followed by the Psalms or Isaiah then probably you know Jeremiah's

[01:11:52] Eq on the 12 prophets and it goes from there um Joe probably later please he asked

[01:11:58] he's probably later prophets probably later but we don't know how late um because we don't have

[01:12:02] in general we don't have a lot of early manuscripts we do have some but mostly for the penitute

[01:12:07] so yeah on the whole the translational activities very much pre-dayth in New Testament which is

[01:12:12] why they were able to at least use it right in many situations but you don't know but that's

[01:12:17] a different but that's completely different from the apocryphal issue right because you don't know if

[01:12:21] they included the apocryphal issue right we know that the apocryphal were written in that time frame

[01:12:26] there's lots of stuff written in that time frame I see but whether it all that really matters is

[01:12:30] that fast forward to 400 AD yeah yeah yeah now you have these three big codices that throw a mixed

[01:12:36] bag of these books in there and you don't have you don't have any idea why right okay so they just

[01:12:40] happen to be circulating in Greek as this I mean there was there was a Greek version of first

[01:12:45] Enoch by then there was you know lots of the pseudopigrifier are Greek and so I mean that's why it's

[01:12:49] like it's truly arbitrary why some of them made it into these books and others didn't like I don't

[01:12:55] know why they don't we don't have I think that's what I was missing the testament like why aren't

[01:12:59] the Greek testaments of the 12 patriarchs in codexanioticus I don't know they run out of paper

[01:13:03] I have no idea yeah it's it's it's very arbitrary sort of which ones got thrown in as sort of

[01:13:10] extra material but the fact that it was very inconsistent for me at least is one one data point that

[01:13:16] there was no uniform what is often called the Alexandrian Egypt cannon is kind of a myth okay and

[01:13:24] something one thing you realize is that you know given that our job is not to create cannon but to

[01:13:29] recognize cannon that does mean that there is room for people to not have full agreement but

[01:13:37] that doesn't mean anything at the end of the day because who who picks cannon god god damn yeah not

[01:13:44] us yeah I mean that's probably the biggest dividing line between us and Remicathletes we would say

[01:13:48] god is the one who picked cannon by virtue of inspiration in the original autographs and our goal

[01:13:52] is to try to recognize and reconstruct that or as probably a Remicathlet would say no the church

[01:13:56] picks cannon and I would argue it was never our job right or never said you get to pick the books

[01:14:03] that you want to use I would say that they can insolently recognize it okay okay fair enough

[01:14:08] um and and I would say I believe the church has through the spirit recognize the cannon and it's

[01:14:17] that he brewed cannon that we've all agreed on until roughly 1500 right right right fine large so I mean

[01:14:24] this just uh to me that's where the evidence leads but yeah but you part of it you have to go you

[01:14:29] have to go back earlier that's what I was trying to do this morning yeah is if you start with cannon

[01:14:35] lists in the four hundred you're starting at the wrong time period that's an important data point

[01:14:40] but you go way back and go way further back and look at other evidence that that flesh is out the

[01:14:44] picture I think that was a missing link for me where I was assuming that the the cannon or the

[01:14:50] the um the Septuagint in its I guess those three codexes when it's kind of final form was

[01:14:58] that's what they would have been looking at in Jesus' day or yeah no I mean

[01:15:04] and just because there wasn't there wasn't even technology to do that back then right right

[01:15:08] right it was only when you get to the third and fourth century that you even have the ability to make

[01:15:12] books that can hold all that uh so that alone would limit the ability to say okay anything between

[01:15:17] these two covers is the cannon right you know codex the contents of a codex doesn't necessarily mean

[01:15:25] that's what you think your cannon is because we do the same thing with our bobbles today I've got a

[01:15:29] bunch of like one of my little bobbles has all the reformation confessions in it yeah and even though

[01:15:33] I revere them they're not canonical right they're subject to correction and so forth but they're

[01:15:38] in my Bible yeah I take them to church just because between those two covers doesn't actually mean

[01:15:43] doesn't really say anything about the cannon it might help you clarify what is canonical and if

[01:15:47] something's not in there then that would be a bit of a problem right that's not what we find

[01:15:51] you know it's not like there's all these codices running around they're missing Jeremiah right

[01:15:56] right but they might have extra stuff and we don't know why they have extra stuff they just do

[01:15:59] and it could just be because they thought it was helpful wow yeah this is a fascinating conversation

[01:16:04] I mean I just it is complicated but I mean one thing I've been thinking about too is that

[01:16:10] just because it's complicated doesn't mean we can't trust what we have now right and but we still

[01:16:15] can look at evidence and I mean you know if the process is though so fraught with complexity like

[01:16:22] I mean I don't know 500 years from now could we find out that I actually maybe Tobit should have

[01:16:26] been in there or you know what I mean like like like when did the process stop I mean on the old

[01:16:33] testament side I'm pretty well persuaded that by the time of Jesus you have a solidified three

[01:16:40] four that was pretty powerful evidence that you showed that they had that understanding I mean it's

[01:16:44] true that you don't have anyone sort of listing all exactly which books fall into the law the

[01:16:50] prophets and the writings but I mean deductively what falls in the law obviously for the new test

[01:16:55] in just there's no disagreement among them among exactly the traditions on the new testament so

[01:17:01] and so for me even though I don't I don't have a you know Jesus doesn't list all the books that

[01:17:08] should be included in the quote unquote writings of their division the fact that they all can talk

[01:17:13] about the divisions in similar language across bylocio cifus Jesus yeah come on and see her and so on

[01:17:22] to me suggest that there was some community agreement that these are the books yeah did

[01:17:29] yeah did they have like what do we do with ecclesiastes I fear enough I get that I can understand

[01:17:33] it's just like the early church did have some dispute about revelation obviously they did because

[01:17:37] they're like what do we do with this I get that and they eventually like yeah okay it's just from

[01:17:41] God and right sorry if you were arguing about it or whatever but so for me I think the process was

[01:17:47] actually essentially done in the time of Jesus um that which is why he never felt compelled to

[01:17:54] address it or all didn't either it's like yeah these are the books and you could point

[01:17:58] to like okay you go to the synagogue oh here's the thing the reality is you would go to a synagogue

[01:18:01] and they have a concrete set of books in their Torah cabinet yeah like when when Jesus goes back

[01:18:07] to Nazareth and he goes to the synagogue Nazareth's a podung town he's like they handed him the scroll

[01:18:12] of Isaiah so even in Nazareth they had probably a Hebrew scroll of Isaiah that would have been part

[01:18:16] of the prophet collection and so it seems like at that point there was a coherent collection of

[01:18:23] scrolls that you could point to and say that's God's word like that's what we take to be from God

[01:18:27] and it's and it's shaped into threefold canon they quote from them a lot they refer to them by

[01:18:33] naming almost all of them we talk about that this morning and you just don't see that for the other

[01:18:37] books they're aware of the other books but you don't see that kind of privileging of the status and so

[01:18:43] is it possible in Jesus' day that there was still some latent debate about probably Esther and

[01:18:49] Ecclesiastes would be the two they would debate Esther because he God's not explicitly mentioning

[01:18:54] Ecclesiastes frankly just because it's kind of weird maybe maybe but I'm not worried about first

[01:18:59] New Testament doesn't quote from those two books so that's right yeah but for me that's

[01:19:05] that's kind of a rounding error in the broader conversation of theirs a coherent collection of books

[01:19:10] and this is what it is and so what we're trying to do is kind of go back and say okay let's give

[01:19:14] that it's full weight and not let later debate and I cloud that fundamental reality so for me I'm

[01:19:20] not waiting for Jerome I'm not waiting for Council and I see I'm not waiting for Athanasius

[01:19:24] I think the evidence points in that direction that it was pretty well set

[01:19:28] with maybe some room for discussion but in general everyone's like yeah these are the books

[01:19:32] well I'm glad that you wrote a book on this too and I'm glad you're doing this kind of research

[01:19:37] it's really helpful in my mind I'm like well if Greg Leneer is not worried about it I'm not

[01:19:41] gonna be worried about you know I find it all just very fascinating it is that's an interesting

[01:19:45] yeah and not everyone does and part of it is you know you have to have an appetite to say I don't

[01:19:50] know yet yeah right and an appetite to like oh I got a lot to learn an appetite to say you know

[01:19:55] what one of the hardest and you probably gathered this in seminary one of the hardest things about

[01:20:00] maturing as a Christian is realizing the history's complicated

[01:20:04] and I don't think I was ready to admit that either as a cage stage Calvinist

[01:20:11] you know you don't admit much as a yes true just like the reformers got everything right it's

[01:20:17] like yeah actually they didn't get everything right although I still

[01:20:20] and the reformers and so saying thing about history it's like okay the more I dig into the

[01:20:24] more I realize you know history is messy but you know what else would I expect yeah

[01:20:28] you read the old test and like yeah man we are messed up

[01:20:32] yeah I mean if they lost the whole bible was just thinking about that I know until I know

[01:20:40] just I'm just saying you know they found it in the wall or whatever like

[01:20:44] all right yeah this is a pretty messy process but you know God has been faithful I think and the

[01:20:48] fact that it actually is as accurately I mean even if you ask them like so historical critical

[01:20:55] scholars want to maximize all the kind of loosens and weirdness because they got a right books

[01:21:02] and so forth and we have a tendency to minimize this thing so it cuts both ways but everyone

[01:21:07] admits like you know what but we're still talking about like a pretty small percentage yeah

[01:21:12] and in reality yet so there's some weirdness and for Samuel and the david and gala's stories

[01:21:16] at longers is short and there's that there are some things we really need to grapple with which

[01:21:19] version of Jeremiah is most accurate the long way the short one so there are some real questions but

[01:21:26] the pine larger like this is kind of impressive that there's this much stability yes in the

[01:21:32] periphery and there's these are things we shouldn't minimize we should put our head in the

[01:21:35] sand we also shouldn't maximize and say that oh we don't know anything is actually not

[01:21:38] 90 something 90 percent the same thing is true on the New Testament side is very stable

[01:21:46] and we can bank on that and then we just do the hard work for the other stuff same thing on

[01:21:49] the New Testament side it's like yeah let's have our debate about the endings of Mark or the

[01:21:52] adulterer's woman but let's not let us that cloud the fact that we have a very reliable

[01:21:59] historic a New Testament that we can reconstruct with the evidence that we have the here I mean

[01:22:04] very high degree of confidence where we can say okay this is the word right or this is actually

[01:22:10] this is scripture this is what Paul wrote right yeah maybe I don't know exactly for this verse if

[01:22:15] it's this word of that word but that's the main point is like no we we can we're already well say

[01:22:20] this what Paul wrote and and we're not hiding anything you know there's not this sort of like

[01:22:24] conspiracy at least we're not supposed to be honest right yeah and the temptation is to downplay

[01:22:28] but I don't think we should I mean that's what I would lay people I know some of these topics and

[01:22:31] probably the listeners have already turned the channel to Netflix but we don't have a lot of

[01:22:37] patience for the hard work right it does requires which is sad maybe back in the olden days they did

[01:22:43] because they didn't have Netflix but I guess what I'm trying to say is the the long way home ultimately

[01:22:53] like to do the hard work for me at least has gotten me to a better place whereas like I don't

[01:22:59] think I am yeah yeah but it requires like it seems boring it seems scholarly but I do think if

[01:23:05] you sort of trust okay that this is actually important to engage with there are answers or at

[01:23:11] least here's the data and we're not 100% sure yet and we can be okay saying that to me that's

[01:23:17] that's actually been a huge net positive as opposed to like either this is boring I don't care

[01:23:23] or like you know I'm not going to worry about the data well it reminds me just even just general

[01:23:29] apologetic sometimes when you dig deeper into atheist arguments or Christian arguments

[01:23:34] you realize it's not as simple but then when you dig in you it's not as simple for the opposing

[01:23:38] side either yeah it's not as simple to just be skeptical about everything right either and I think

[01:23:42] so the complexity I think in cut both ways thanks for spending your time you know having discussion

[01:23:48] I know you've been talking all day but this was great this was fantastic appreciate all your work

[01:23:53] on this and again we're gonna put all some links to your books in our show notes and but Greg thanks

[01:23:59] for thanks for joining me keep out the good work thank you guys for listening in make sure you

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